Series 3 Brake/clutch bleeding with syringe or eezibleed

I tried adjusting the cams at all the wheels today. It seems a bit better, but the pedal still hits the floor the first time you push it. For a few seconds after it will be stiffer if pushed again. However if you leave it for a minute it will go back to being able to be pushed to the floor.

From this description, does this suggest air in the system?

Webley1991 said:

At £8 a litre it's expensive to go to waste.

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Blimey, brake fluid's rocketed in price since last year... I bought 6 x 500ml of Shell DOT5.1 for £14, delivered, from eBay. Looking now, a single bottle's £7.

I still wouldn't re-use it, though.

FWIW - I presume you know the difference between the various DOT fluids?
DOT3 - the original glycol-based, no reason whatsoever to buy it these days.
DOT4 - higher boiling point, especially when old and "wet".
DOT5 - silicone-based, DO NOT MIX with the others, an absolute bugger to bleed.
DOT 5.1 - compatible with DOT3/4, higher boiling point again.

Webley1991 said:

I tried adjusting the cams at all the wheels today. It seems a bit better, but the pedal still hits the floor the first time you push it. For a few seconds after it will be stiffer if pushed again. However if you leave it for a minute it will go back to being able to be pushed to the floor.

From this description, does this suggest air in the system?

Click to expand...

Yes!
Wind out all the cams to lock the shoes against drums. Pedal should be rock hard when no air in system.
Edit. Last brake fluid I bought think it was 16 quid for 5l at Mill. DOT4!

There is a procedure written by ROver for adjustment of the rear brakes on a 109 I've found convenient over the years. In short, it suggests adjusting the snail cams with the brake pedal being pressed by an associate. This was formulated in response to the numerous complaints about crappy brakes after adjustment on 109s.

Stomp the brakes, lock the snail cams, then back off 1-2 notches. Lather, rinse, repeat as required.

mrchurchill109 said:

There is a procedure written by ROver for adjustment of the rear brakes on a 109 I've found convenient over the years. In short, it suggests adjusting the snail cams with the brake pedal being pressed by an associate. This was formulated in response to the numerous complaints about crappy brakes after adjustment on 109s.

Stomp the brakes, lock the snail cams, then back off 1-2 notches. Lather, rinse, repeat as required.

Click to expand...

Not surprised, although I didn't know it was an official Rover thing. I used to have a 109 six pot, huge drums on the front! And it was a pain to bleed, until someone suggested locking the snails first. Some go the other way, de-adjust for minimum volume. I guess whatever works for the individual is good!

After trying to sort other bits out, I went back to the brakes over the weekend.

After managing to get a better feel to the pedal with adjustment, I noticed one of the front wheel cylinders has a small leak.

I take it the easiest option here is to swap the cylinder for a new one. Will that mean having to bleed the whole system yet again? I did consider building some isolator valves in at each wheel. That way you could simply shut them off to replace a cylinder.

Webley1991 said:

I noticed one of the front wheel cylinders has a small leak.

I take it the easiest option here is to swap the cylinder for a new one. Will that mean having to bleed the whole system yet again? I did consider building some isolator valves in at each wheel. That way you could simply shut them off to replace a cylinder.

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Yep, you need to sort the leaking cylinder - and re-rubbering is a penny-pinching shortcut when new cylinders are as cheap as they are for Landies.

The easiest way to "isolate" a wheel is just to clamp the flexi - there's umpteen different designs of clamp on the market specifically designed for brake flexis. Does it damage the flexi internally...? <shrug> Which type's best? <shrug> But they exist... I've never heard of "isolator valves", though.

TooMany2cvs said:

Blimey, brake fluid's rocketed in price since last year... I bought 6 x 500ml of Shell DOT5.1 for £14, delivered, from eBay. Looking now, a single bottle's £7.

I still wouldn't re-use it, though.

FWIW - I presume you know the difference between the various DOT fluids?
DOT3 - the original glycol-based, no reason whatsoever to buy it these days.
DOT4 - higher boiling point, especially when old and "wet".
DOT5 - silicone-based, DO NOT MIX with the others, an absolute bugger to bleed.
DOT 5.1 - compatible with DOT3/4, higher boiling point again.

Click to expand...

On the subject of expensive brake fluid and I find that 500ml isnt quite enough... I did find that a 5 litres of Dot4 from eurocarparts.com ( Part No.:524770270 ) is £11.99.
I know it will start to absorb moisture when its opened (so not great to leave in the garage for months once opened) but its the same price for 2 small bottles - although it does mean I have more to spill on the driveway when I inevitably kick the jar over

Get an assistant, crack the pipe union on the master cyl, assistant pushes pedal down (should hear air coming out), nip back up, lift pedal up. Repeat until air is expelled and you get clear fluid coming out. (I found it helps to pre fill the master cylinder with a syringe or pipette)

If you still struggle to get fluid through, use a vaccum pump to draw fluid through and if that doesnt work its possible the master cylinder is fubar (basically when you press the pedal, intead of compressing the fluid, it just moves the seal instead) to check this, clamp all flexis, if cylinder is good then pedal should be solid

having a couple of flexi hose clamps in the car is a good idea in case you lose a cylinder out and about, had to do it once when a rear one went, clamped off the back and still had brakes good enough to get home

I had another go over the weekend. I fitted the cylinder and got a pretty good pedal.

However, all of the drums seem to be rubbing on the pads quite a bit. If I back them off any further it lets the pedal be pushed to the floor. I don't think there is any air left in the system as the resistance to the pedal is fairly solid as it is now.

It may be that the return springs are old and weak - I had to replace some on mine.

You do have the return springs at the rear axle in the correct positions? The top one needs to go from the shoe to the pin on the back plate, not to the other shoe. If the spring is connected shoe to shoe at the top then you will have to pump the pedal at minimum twice to push both shoes back out regardless of the adjuster.

The adjusters at the rear only work on the leading shoes for Left and Right sides, the other shoe is just held in position by the slave cylinder, if this shoe is incorrectly fitted with a top return spring, there is noting stopping it compressing the slave cylinder and returning all the way back to it's stop.

Worth checking

Thanks for the replies.

The springs are fairly new, and fitted correctly.

good tip you can make your own bleeder, just get a piece of rubber hose small enough to be a tight fit on the nipple, and block the other end with a short piece of round steel only about an inch, and put a slit in the pipe length ways just above were the blocking piece is, when you pump the brakes it will allow fluid out into a jam jar and wont be able to be sucked back when you release the pedal