Biodiesel experiences so far

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P

Paul S. Brown

Guest
Been running on V100 biodiesel for a few weeks now and have come to a few
conclusions:

1) It purges the fuel system - it's almost like running on pure Redex. You
need to adjust the fuelling downwards otherwise you smoke like a sod and go
through fuel like a bastard.

2) It's got a little more grunt than Dinodiesel in a 200TDI. It is rubbish
in whatever lump (BMW?) is in a Rover 75.

3) It won't cold start worth a damn - 25 seconds of cranking to get it to
catch on 2 cylinders and another 30 seconds nursing the accelerator to stop
it stalling out. OK with a good battery, bad news if your battery is a bit
weak. It's almost like trying to start a flooded petrol car.

4) It smells nice

I'm now mixing it 25/75 with dinodiesel to see if that helps the cold start
problem. Failing that it's either Webasto time, or back to dinodiesel.

P.

--
If Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course
Does it Matter if Nobody Minds?
 
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:45:10 +0000, Mr.Nice.
<mr.nice@*nospam*clara.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:03:33 +0000, "Paul S. Brown"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Been running on V100 biodiesel for a few weeks now and have come to a few
>>conclusions:
>>
>>1) It purges the fuel system - it's almost like running on pure Redex. You
>>need to adjust the fuelling downwards otherwise you smoke like a sod and go
>>through fuel like a bastard.
>>
>>2) It's got a little more grunt than Dinodiesel in a 200TDI. It is rubbish
>>in whatever lump (BMW?) is in a Rover 75.
>>
>>3) It won't cold start worth a damn - 25 seconds of cranking to get it to
>>catch on 2 cylinders and another 30 seconds nursing the accelerator to stop
>>it stalling out. OK with a good battery, bad news if your battery is a bit
>>weak. It's almost like trying to start a flooded petrol car.
>>
>>4) It smells nice
>>
>>I'm now mixing it 25/75 with dinodiesel to see if that helps the cold start
>>problem. Failing that it's either Webasto time, or back to dinodiesel.
>>
>>P.
>
>I'm running on 50/50 in a 2.5 n/a and agree on all points.
>
>I understand an electric preheater as sold by the place I buy mine
>from will help coldstarting, it heats the fuel lines and thins the
>fluid.

Does anybody know somewhere in cheshire/staffs where i can buy some in
a sensible quantity? (<500l)
I've found a fair few place down south that will do it in quantities
starting from 25l, but nowhere here. There seems to be a big place not
far away, in northwich that make it, but they only do 2000l minimum,
which is a bit excessive for my use!

 

"Paul S. Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Been running on V100 biodiesel for a few weeks now and have come to a few
> conclusions:
<Snip>
> 2) It's got a little more grunt than Dinodiesel in a 200TDI. It is rubbish
> in whatever lump (BMW?) is in a Rover 75.
<Snip>

FWIW, my owners handbook for the BMW 330dSE (same engine as a TD6) states
quite categorically that you must not run it on Bio-diesel or rape seed
derived fuels or damage will happen. Not "might happen", but "will happen".
I wonder if this has anything to do with the higher pressures used with the
common-rail injection system?
Any ideas, group?

Badger.


 
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:51:45 +0000, Mr.Nice.
<mr.nice@*nospam*clara.co.uk> wrote:

>>my local place does it straight from a garage-style pump or in 100l
>>containers.
>>try this list : http://www.bio-power.co.uk/agents.htm
>
>oops, that should have read 1000L containers.
>they used to do 20L but no-one was buying them.
>
The nearest place to me is 36 miles away (from work. further from
home).

Hmm. they say that you can get a 200l container at home and they will
come and fill it up. Will have to check if they will deliver to here.

Otherwise, i wonder how much you can fit in the back of a SWB landy,
and how much i need to buy to make the journey worthwhile! :)

Are there any limits (legally - as fuel?) to quantities you can store
at home or transport in your car?

 
Tom Woods wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:51:45 +0000, Mr.Nice.
> <mr.nice@*nospam*clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>my local place does it straight from a garage-style pump or in 100l
>>>containers.
>>>try this list : http://www.bio-power.co.uk/agents.htm
>>
>>oops, that should have read 1000L containers.
>>they used to do 20L but no-one was buying them.
>>
> The nearest place to me is 36 miles away (from work. further from
> home).
>
> Hmm. they say that you can get a 200l container at home and they will
> come and fill it up. Will have to check if they will deliver to here.
>
> Otherwise, i wonder how much you can fit in the back of a SWB landy,
> and how much i need to buy to make the journey worthwhile! :)
>
> Are there any limits (legally - as fuel?) to quantities you can store
> at home or transport in your car?

There are, but for diesel they're quite high - bear in mind that home
heating oil is nominally diesel/kerosene and can be in anything up to 3000l
tanks.

Just for reference, a "200L" tank from Bio Power is actually a 45 gallon oil
drum. The 1000l tank is an industrial minibulk.

If your SWB is a pickup then I'd figure you could probably get around
300-400l in 45 gallon drums in the back - I wouldn't want to try and drive
around roundabouts though.

P.
--
If Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course
Does it Matter if Nobody Minds?
 
On or around Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:49:33 +0000, "Paul S. Brown"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>
>Just for reference, a "200L" tank from Bio Power is actually a 45 gallon oil
>drum. The 1000l tank is an industrial minibulk.

200l of diesel-ish stuff in a drum should be about 200Kg, so i reckon you'd
get 2 in a SWB, weightwise, provided there's enough floorspace to stand 'em
on.



 
On Friday, in article
<[email protected]>
[email protected] "Tom Woods" wrote:

> Hmm. they say that you can get a 200l container at home and they will
> come and fill it up. Will have to check if they will deliver to here.
>
> Otherwise, i wonder how much you can fit in the back of a SWB landy,
> and how much i need to buy to make the journey worthwhile! :)
>
> Are there any limits (legally - as fuel?) to quantities you can store
> at home or transport in your car?

Diesel, and paraffin, are used as bulk heating oils and, while there are
rules intended to minimise the environmental effects of a spillage,
there's nothing unusual in storing 3000 litres.

It's petrol which has the tight restrictions.



--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."
 
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:35:44 +0000, Tom Woods <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:51:45 +0000, Mr.Nice.
><mr.nice@*nospam*clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>my local place does it straight from a garage-style pump or in 100l
>>>containers.
>>>try this list : http://www.bio-power.co.uk/agents.htm
>>
>>oops, that should have read 1000L containers.
>>they used to do 20L but no-one was buying them.
>>
>The nearest place to me is 36 miles away (from work. further from
>home).

Ive worked out that its cost effective for me to travel there and buy
some of the stuff, so an probably going to try and get some over the
next week or so.

However - I have trouble starting my landy on cold mornings with
normal diesel. I think this is mainly due to my battery just not
having enough kick in it first thing in the morning after it has sat
all night.

I was considering leaving my landy hooked up to a battery charger
overnight so that it has lots of go in the morning. Would this be
sensible?
I would be using one of the cheap low ampage chargers (machine mart
sell a 4A one for ~£10)

 
On or around Sat, 20 Nov 2004 20:01:16 +0000, Tom Woods
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:35:44 +0000, Tom Woods <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:51:45 +0000, Mr.Nice.
>><mr.nice@*nospam*clara.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>>my local place does it straight from a garage-style pump or in 100l
>>>>containers.
>>>>try this list : http://www.bio-power.co.uk/agents.htm
>>>
>>>oops, that should have read 1000L containers.
>>>they used to do 20L but no-one was buying them.
>>>
>>The nearest place to me is 36 miles away (from work. further from
>>home).
>
>Ive worked out that its cost effective for me to travel there and buy
>some of the stuff, so an probably going to try and get some over the
>next week or so.
>
>However - I have trouble starting my landy on cold mornings with
>normal diesel. I think this is mainly due to my battery just not
>having enough kick in it first thing in the morning after it has sat
>all night.
>
>I was considering leaving my landy hooked up to a battery charger
>overnight so that it has lots of go in the morning. Would this be
>sensible?

it'd give the battery the best chance. In seriously cold weather your best
bet would be to try to get the engine and battery warmer though.

check that all else is in order though - in the first place, a diesel landy
should have at least a 644 or 645 "small truck/tractor" battery - if it's
smaller than that it's not big enough. I forget what the next-size-up is,
mebbe 664/665 and that's even better. These things are best bought from
commercial suppliers or from farmers co-ops and the like - halfrauds et al
charge too much for 'em. last one I bought was about 46 quid I think. If
the battery's old (as in more than about 4 years) and giving you starting
problems, then I'd replace it.

Check too that the alternator is producing the correct voltage and current.

also check your earthing and all connections.

if it's the kind of thing with manual preheat (i.e. by turning the key to
half-cock) then make sure you give it enough preheat - an old sherpa I had
with those preheaters needed at least 1'30" by my watch to start reliably,
and sometimes more when it was really cold. Also check the glow plugs that
they are all working. If it's the modern sort of preheat with a timer, then
you can turn it off and on again to get several stabs at it.


Back to the battery charger, with a bit of effort you could adapt the
charger and the land rover to have a suitable socket, and a double-ended
plug lead which plugs the one into the other.

charger landy
in
shed ______
____ (=socket o=plug / | |
| | |¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯|
|__|----------(o-----------------------------o)-------'()----()-'


>I would be using one of the cheap low ampage chargers (machine mart
>sell a 4A one for ~£10)

which is all you need for an overnight top-up charge.
 
Mr.Nice. <mr.nice@*nospam*clara.co.uk> wrote:

>I'm running on 50/50 in a 2.5 n/a and agree on all points.

Any rework necessary, exchanging some hoses or other plastic parts?



regards - Ralph

--

Want to get in touch? http://www.radio-link.net/whereisralph.txt
 
On or around Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:12:38 +0000, Mr.Nice.
<mr.nice@*nospam*clara.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

>On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 09:41:55 +0000, Austin Shackles
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>check that all else is in order though - in the first place, a diesel landy
>>should have at least a 644 or 645 "small truck/tractor" battery - if it's
>>smaller than that it's not big enough. I forget what the next-size-up is,
>>mebbe 664/665 and that's even better. These things are best bought from
>>commercial suppliers or from farmers co-ops and the like - halfrauds et al
>>charge too much for 'em. last one I bought was about 46 quid I think. If
>>the battery's old (as in more than about 4 years) and giving you starting
>>problems, then I'd replace it.
>
>I understand it's a simple numeric increase hence 646 next.

yebbut, you'll likely find that's a different format or something. ISTR
that 664 is the bigger brother of 644, with a hundred so more CCA. 644
should do about 750A CCA depending on which system it's measured by.

Cold Cranking Amperage: tested by putting a sodoff shunt and meter across
it, I assume - there are a couple of standards. One is for 1 minute at -14C
to 1.4V per cell, I think that IEC, then there's SAE which is 30 seconds at
-18 to 1.2V per cell. Represents the amount of oomph available in the
battery from fully charged to mostly-flat. Not quite the same as the Ah
figure, which is typically at a 20-hr rate, in other words, a 20Ah battery
would do 1A for 20 hrs, but wouldn't necessarily do 10A for 2 hrs - the
various losses increase.

 
On or around Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:12:38 +0000, Mr.Nice.
<mr.nice@*nospam*clara.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

>I'd be tempted to get an intellegent one that'll reduce it's current
>as the battery charged and then stopped when it was full, or am I
>being over-cautous? probably...

I think you'll find the cheapo 4A one won't harm a big battery overnight.
They work by not having too much voltage available, I believe, so that once
the battery gets up to about 13.5V the current reduces anyway.

 
On or around Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:02:32 +0000, Mr.Nice.
<mr.nice@*nospam*clara.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

>nope, on 50/50 no mods needed.
>I'm going to be running on 100% and for that I will be fitting a
>system to warm the fuel pre-filter (electrically for the first few
>minutes then using coolant) to thin it to aid smooth running.
>
>it does need to be cranking more to start it and it runs rough for 2-3
>minutes after startup, I put that down to the fuel being thicker, once
>the engine is warming the pipes to the heater radiate heat to the fuel
>filter which helps thin it, also I know my injectors are in poor
>condition, I expect things to improve when I fit recons.
>

how does it compare on price, using 50-50? has it affected MPG or power and
if so which way?

and whereabouts is the supplier? We've a TDi here, doing more miles per
week than it used to and cheaper fuel might be worth the effort.


 
Ralph A. Schmid, DK5RAS wrote:

> Mr.Nice. <mr.nice@*nospam*clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>I'm running on 50/50 in a 2.5 n/a and agree on all points.
>
> Any rework necessary, exchanging some hoses or other plastic parts?
>
>

Not for the stuff Bio-Power sell - it's pretty much 5 micron filtered chip
fat and doesn't do much in the way of solventy stuff. Just slop it into the
tank and drive on.

You may find yourself needing to have the fuelling adusted downwards as the
biodiesel smokes a bit more than dinodiesel, also they recommend changing
the in-line fuel filter after the first 500 miles or so because the stuff
effectively cleans out the fuel system - as I've said before it's almost
like running the car on pure Redex. Figure around a quid for the filter and
ten minutes to fit it.

Depending on your car you *may* want to get one of their heat exchangers. I
haven't grabbed one yet so I don't know how useful they are.

You may have to replace plastic parts if you end up with "Trans Esterified
Waste Vegetable Fat" which is somewhat nastier to make and is a better
solvent than brake fluid, however I doubt it.

P.

--
If Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course
Does it Matter if Nobody Minds?
 
Austin Shackles wrote:

> On or around Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:02:32 +0000, Mr.Nice.
> <mr.nice@*nospam*clara.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>nope, on 50/50 no mods needed.
>>I'm going to be running on 100% and for that I will be fitting a
>>system to warm the fuel pre-filter (electrically for the first few
>>minutes then using coolant) to thin it to aid smooth running.
>>
>>it does need to be cranking more to start it and it runs rough for 2-3
>>minutes after startup, I put that down to the fuel being thicker, once
>>the engine is warming the pipes to the heater radiate heat to the fuel
>>filter which helps thin it, also I know my injectors are in poor
>>condition, I expect things to improve when I fit recons.
>>
>
> how does it compare on price, using 50-50? has it affected MPG or power
> and if so which way?
>
> and whereabouts is the supplier? We've a TDi here, doing more miles per
> week than it used to and cheaper fuel might be worth the effort.

Bio-Power will sell to you at 10ppl below pump prices if you collect it or
5ppl below if you want it delivered. Figure out your savings, but on 50/50
you're looking at a 2.5ppl saving over standard fuel, however you have to
factor the cost of a pump (£25-150) in to the savings.

My local supplier is offering "futures" where I pay for 1000l now and have
it delivered on request at the price I paid originally regardless of what's
happened to pump prices in the meanwhile.

On my car the MPG went way down when I started using it, but seems to be
returning with the fuelling turned down a bit - like I've said before it
flushes the fuel system out quite thoroughly.

Power seems marginally increased although there's not much in it.

Suppliers can be found at http://www.bio-power.co.uk/agents.htm

If you've got the space and the time you can make your own for around £0.45
per litre including paying the money to C&E to keep yourself legit. There's
somebody in the south of Wales somewhere (can't remember where) offers
instructions on how to do it. It basically involves filtering the chip fat
to remove the burnt crunchy bits, adding red lye and then letting it settle
for a few weeks. You then end up with biodiesel on the top and about a
third as much glycerine on the bottome - the biggest problem with this is
that you end up with vast amounts of glycerine to dispose of - you could go
into soap production if you wanted I guess.

P.
--
If Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course
Does it Matter if Nobody Minds?
 
Mr.Nice. <mr.nice@*nospam*clara.co.uk> wrote:

>nope, on 50/50 no mods needed.
>I'm going to be running on 100% and for that I will be fitting a
>system to warm the fuel pre-filter (electrically for the first few
>minutes then using coolant) to thin it to aid smooth running.

But no plastic parts being dissolved by the biodiesel stuff? I was
told thad pure oil from plants is no problem, just the "methylester"
(do not know the english spelling) can cause trouble and dissolve
plastic parts in the fueling system...



regards - Ralph

--

Want to get in touch? http://www.radio-link.net/whereisralph.txt
 
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:12:38 +0000, Mr.Nice. wrote:

> I'd be tempted to get an intellegent one that'll reduce it's current
> as the battery charged and then stopped when it was full, or am I
> being over-cautous? probably...

For overnight use I shouldn't worry about it. The current flowing will
help keep the battery warm, thus help it produce the required starting
current.

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail



 
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 09:41:55 +0000, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>I was considering leaving my landy hooked up to a battery charger
>>overnight so that it has lots of go in the morning. Would this be
>>sensible?
>
>it'd give the battery the best chance. In seriously cold weather your best
>bet would be to try to get the engine and battery warmer though.
>
>check that all else is in order though - in the first place, a diesel landy
>should have at least a 644 or 645 "small truck/tractor" battery - if it's
>smaller than that it's not big enough. I forget what the next-size-up is,
>mebbe 664/665 and that's even better. These things are best bought from
>commercial suppliers or from farmers co-ops and the like - halfrauds et al
>charge too much for 'em. last one I bought was about 46 quid I think. If
>the battery's old (as in more than about 4 years) and giving you starting
>problems, then I'd replace it.

I have a battery that was recommended for the 2.5d 90 in the book in
the shop. It's only about 6 months old. I needed it in a rush and that
was what the local shop had!. Its a 68Ah rated one.
I did have a truck one, but it died. Unfortunately this new one wont
fit in my car (hits the bonnet) else i'd swap it across and buy a
bigger one for the landy.

>Check too that the alternator is producing the correct voltage and current.

It was a couple of months ago (tested it to troubleshoot a mates).
'tis also fairly new.

>also check your earthing and all connections.

Its good from the battery to the chassis. I have a new strap ready for
the starter to chassis as i dont trust the existing one.

>if it's the kind of thing with manual preheat (i.e. by turning the key to
>half-cock) then make sure you give it enough preheat - an old sherpa I had
>with those preheaters needed at least 1'30" by my watch to start reliably,
>and sometimes more when it was really cold. Also check the glow plugs that
>they are all working. If it's the modern sort of preheat with a timer, then
>you can turn it off and on again to get several stabs at it.

Its manual preheat until i get round to fitting a timer!. I put the
glow plugs in last winter when it wouldnt start. They are rated to
glow in about 15 seconds i think (not original spec sherpa ones!). I
usually give it 15-20secs.
I dont think its them as it just turns over slowly when its cold.

>Back to the battery charger, with a bit of effort you could adapt the
>charger and the land rover to have a suitable socket, and a double-ended
>plug lead which plugs the one into the other.

That is the plan! I'd rather keep the charger in the garage as its
safer (and drier there). This means that my lead will be 5-10metres
long to reach the car.
Will i notice any current loss over this distance?. Or will this not
matter since i'm only trickle charging it for 8 hours a night. I will
probably use some flexible mains cable for the actual lead since this
should be strong enough to cope with lying on the floor outside every
night thsi winter.

>>I would be using one of the cheap low ampage chargers (machine mart
>>sell a 4A one for ~£10)
>
>which is all you need for an overnight top-up charge.

and its not going to damage my battery if i leave it on every night?.
I have a timer switch i can put it on so that it does 8 hours per
night or somthing similar.
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Austin Shackles wrote:
> You then end up with biodiesel on the top and about a
> third as much glycerine on the bottome - the biggest problem with this is
> that you end up with vast amounts of glycerine to dispose of - you could go
> into soap production if you wanted I guess.

Or a rather violent firework.....*ahem*.

Aled.
 
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