Variable brake pedal feel

[ONE LIFE LIVE IT. D90]

I think this may be what I was trying to say last night until beer got in the way

ya say you've got vented discs on the front? are they standard for model or upgrade / aftermarket fitment?
do you have wheel spacers fitted or large offset rims?

somethings allowing the pads to be pushed back to cause the excessive pedal travel after cornering by what you say.

where are you?

Thanks for the reply, and to everyone else for their efforts. It's really appreciated.

The vented discs were from on online motor factor. I just cross referenced the part numbers from 110 defenders to get the right disc fitment as mine is a 90 1995 300tdi....

I've got a set of timken wheel bearings I bought just incase. Are they worth throwing in one of the hubs to rule it out. Or do what Kwakerman suggested first.

The tyres are 285/75/16 on modular wheels. Not sure of the offset, but they fit without adjusting the lock stops too much so they must have a decent offset. No wheel spacers though. And timken bearings used everytime.

Thanks alot

 

[ONE LIFE LIVE IT. D90]

but you have

in?

i've got the old style so i dunno how much they move tbh

Yes mate those are the ones I have in. I think they may be britpart though.

Thankyou for your time and knowledge with this.

I'm abit reluctant to change another set of bearings if there is no play with a big pry bar etc. But there's something clearly wrong! So perhaps I should just go for it

 

[nrgserv]

Thanks for the reply, and to everyone else for their efforts. It's really appreciated.

The vented discs were from on online motor factor. I just cross referenced the part numbers from 110 defenders to get the right disc fitment as mine is a 90 1995 300tdi....

I've got a set of timken wheel bearings I bought just incase. Are they worth throwing in one of the hubs to rule it out. Or do what Kwakerman suggested first.

Thanks alot

would be nice to see if its just one corner that's causing the issue, or a combination of smaller amounts on all corners, so if its possible to do kwakerman's suggestion, would be good.
other alternative (to the matchstick method ) is a coating of methylene blue or engineers blue on the disc, do your test run without using the brakes, then look at which disc has the blue removed by pad contact.

ya still aint said where you are, willing to assist if your local!

 

[trax]

would be nice to see if its just one corner that's causing the issue, or a combination of smaller amounts on all corners, so if its possible to do kwakerman's suggestion, would be good.
other alternative (to the matchstick method ) is a coating of methylene blue or engineers blue on the disc, do your test run without using the brakes, then look at which disc has the blue removed by pad contact.

ya still aint said where you are, willing to assist if your local!

that's a good idea, more sane that your match one too! what if he only had safety matches.. eh!

bit of thin spray paint would probably work as well.

 

[ONE LIFE LIVE IT. D90]

would be nice to see if its just one corner that's causing the issue, or a combination of smaller amounts on all corners, so if its possible to do kwakerman's suggestion, would be good.
other alternative (to the matchstick method ) is a coating of methylene blue or engineers blue on the disc, do your test run without using the brakes, then look at which disc has the blue removed by pad contact.

ya still aint said where you are, willing to assist if your local!

Another good idea. I'm going to try these suggestions tomorrow. I won't get chance today.

I'm based near wolverhampton. Thanks for your kind offer.

that's a good idea, more sane that your match one too! what if he only had safety matches.. eh!

bit of thin spray paint would probably work as well.

 

[nrgserv]

bit too far for me to be local, but will keep an eye on the thread and offer suggestions as I see fit

keep us all updated!

 

[TorsionBhudda]

Thanks Trax.

They rock a fair bit in the caliper, possibly 3 to 4mm. This is with new Ap calipers and pads fitted at the same time.

I've thrown away my old flexis, and don't fancy buying some more just to check that. I spose I could lift them off and use a block as you said.

It deffo can't be wheel bearings now. There is no play at all up front.....

I can't see why turning has an effect though. And it doesn't happen forward then reverse when driving in a straight line.

Is the caliper pistons returning 3-4mm?? if so they shouldn't sounds to me they are backing themselves off in some way. pad movemment shouldn't provide anything like enough force to return caliper pistons by that amount. I'd check that pistons arent creeping back they could be faulty.

 

[ONE LIFE LIVE IT. D90]

Is the caliper pistons returning 3-4mm?? if so they shouldn't sounds to me they are backing themselves off in some way. pad movemment shouldn't provide anything like enough force to return caliper pistons by that amount. I'd check that pistons arent creeping back they could be faulty.

The caliper pistons on the front, are rear actually are only out the bores 3 to 4mm due to new pads and discs. I'm not sure how much they are being "knocked back" by. I'm going to investigate that hopefully tomorrow.

If it was faulty calipers wouldn't it happen in a straight line also?

 

[TorsionBhudda]

When you release the brake pedal the caliper piston should only return slightly the brake pads will just be released off the disc so to have lots off movement isn't good. Could be when turning the wheel the resistance of wheel turning is whats pushing piston back.

I recently did my front brakes and wheel bearings and had a similar issue only diffrence was wheel bearing was loosening off (yes had tab washer etc) but gave me similar symptons as you describe I readjusted the bearings a couple time before stripping whole lot back down and found I had fitted the Hub Oil seal in Backwards as it wore and destroyed itself (with in 100miles) I got movement and a pedal as you describe especially going round corners. Brakes have been spot on since fitted new seal the right way.

 

[ONE LIFE LIVE IT. D90]

When you release the brake pedal the caliper piston should only return slightly the brake pads will just be released off the disc so to have lots off movement isn't good. Could be when turning the wheel the resistance of wheel turning is whats pushing piston back.

I recently did my front brakes and wheel bearings and had a similar issue only diffrence was wheel bearing was loosening off (yes had tab washer etc) but gave me similar symptons as you describe I readjusted the bearings a couple time before stripping whole lot back down and found I had fitted the Hub Oil seal in Backwards as it wore and destroyed itself (with in 100miles) I got movement and a pedal as you describe especially going round corners. Brakes have been spot on since fitted new seal the right way.

Thankyou for the reply.

You say you had similar symptoms? What were they?

Fitting the hub seal wrongly wouldn't allow play in my case would it? I usually fit ftc4785g so that the lip is flush with the hub.

Should I be pulling off the other hub off the front axle and change those bearings then?

 

[trax]

Thankyou for the reply.

You say you had similar symptoms? What were they?

Fitting the hub seal wrongly wouldn't allow play in my case would it? I usually fit ftc4785g so that the lip is flush with the hub.

Should I be pulling off the other hub off the front axle and change those bearings then?

unless they are rocking when you check, i'd doubt it.

 

[ONE LIFE LIVE IT. D90]

unless they are rocking when you check, i'd doubt it.

They aren't. But what else can it be?

What's odd too, is when off road the same thing happens. Although I haven't tried it since changing the two stubs and bearings.

Again, also pointing to wheel bearings. FFS what a pain in the arse this is proving to be!

 

[boguing]

If it is the front brakes, and if it is the bearings, then I'd test for that like this:-

Get set up where you can drive the better part of a circle. Pump the brakes so that they're 'centred' and then drive in a circle and coast to a stop without touching the brakes. Working by feel, see which pad has moved to the 'loose' position, because only one should have moved (or one on each caliper if the problem is on more than one wheel). If none feel loose, repeat but turning the other way.

Apart from the rattly front pads though, there is nothing that excludes the back brakes from being at fault is there? Just because you've linked it to turning doesn't limit it to the steered wheels.

 

[ONE LIFE LIVE IT. D90]

If it is the front brakes, and if it is the bearings, then I'd test for that like this:-

Get set up where you can drive the better part of a circle. Pump the brakes so that they're 'centred' and then drive in a circle and coast to a stop without touching the brakes. Working by feel, see which pad has moved to the 'loose' position, because only one should have moved (or one on each caliper if the problem is on more than one wheel). If none feel loose, repeat but turning the other way.

Apart from the rattly front pads though, there is nothing that excludes the back brakes from being at fault is there? Just because you've linked it to turning doesn't limit it to the steered wheels.

Thankyou.

That's another good tip. hopefully if I get a spare 5 minutes tomorrow, I'm going to do what you and Kwakerman suggest. A long with any other suggestions!

I will also jack up the rear again and get the big pry bar under. I must admit I haven't used the pry bar on the rear wheels. There doesn't seem to be any play by rocking on the ground though and jacking up and rocking by hand. And the one that hasn't been replaced has been adjusted.


I'll keep you all updated as soon as I've managed to have a look a bit further.

Cheers

 

[TorsionBhudda]

Thankyou for the reply.

You say you had similar symptoms? What were they?

Fitting the hub seal wrongly wouldn't allow play in my case would it? I usually fit ftc4785g so that the lip is flush with the hub.

Should I be pulling off the other hub off the front axle and change those bearings then?

The symptoms I had were after going round a corner I.e roundabout then breaking peddle went soft in straight line it was fine except under hard breaking there was vibration. Like said turned out I'd fitted seal back to front and they got destroyed. But when I was stripping the Brakes down I noticed a lot of play between pads and discs ( usually you would need feelers to tell if there was a gap) I never measured the gap but I'd say 3-4mm like what you have described.what I had done when fitting seal wrong way round was have it tight to bearing.like said earlier if you have 4-5mm play in pads something not right gap should be only measurable with feelers and calliper Pistons do take quite a bit of force to move!

 

[ONE LIFE LIVE IT. D90]

The symptoms I had were after going round a corner I.e roundabout then breaking peddle went soft in straight line it was fine except under hard breaking there was vibration. Like said turned out I'd fitted seal back to front and they got destroyed. But when I was stripping the Brakes down I noticed a lot of play between pads and discs ( usually you would need feelers to tell if there was a gap) I never measured the gap but I'd say 3-4mm like what you have described.what I had done when fitting seal wrong way round was have it tight to bearing.like said earlier if you have 4-5mm play in pads something not right gap should be only measurable with feelers and calliper Pistons do take quite a bit of force to move!

That's interesting. As you say the symptoms are very similar.

In regard to fitting the seals, I make sure that the hub seal lip is flush with the rear face of the hub.

The brake pads rock, from front to back of the vehicle if you get me in the caliper housing. A bit like the pads are too small for the calipers (mintex?) - Perhaps 2 to 3mm movenent instead! Enough to hear them clanking when the wheels are jacked up and the wheel is spun back and forth on both front wheels.

What's really irritating is that I've felt land rover wheel bearings with far more play and end float (?) Than mine with no apparent brake issues at all. In fact a friends td5 90 has play in one of the bearings, yet the brakes are fine.

I'll try some suggestions that you've all made and come back with an update. Hopefully with have found the answer, fingers crossed.

Thankyou all for your time!

 

[ONE LIFE LIVE IT. D90]

Right guys. An update as I said!..

I drove the land rover tonight, did the turning circle or half a turn (enough for the problem to be shown) without touching the brakes and came to a standstill with the hand brake.

Whipped both front wheels off, and inspected the caliper to see if there was any pad knock back. There didn't seem to be alot if any to tell the truth, maybe half a mm on 1 pad of each caliper. Questionable to tell the truth! The difference between the untouched brake pedal and a pumped pedal difference was minimal.
While I was there I changed the pad retainers. Took it for a spin and it hasn't made any difference!

Also jacked up the rear wheel of which hub bearings I hadn't replaced and got a 600mm pry bar under the wheel. No play there either. Yet to check the rear calipers with the wheels off though. I ran out of time.

One thing I do want to add just incase... I drove another 300tdi 90 the same year today. And my brake pedal was higher in comparison with minimal travel (better brakes too though). I'm just wondering if the pads are binding slightly, and any end float while cornering is noticed more due to the pads being closer to the disc?

What do you guys think? You can probably tell I'm plucking things out the air now haha. Thanks alot

 

[Kwakerman]

Cant see pedal height causing the issue only when turning but not in a straight line. Next thing is to repeat test and get the rear wheels off for a look. Good luck

 

[ONE LIFE LIVE IT. D90]

Cant see pedal height causing the issue only when turning but not in a straight line. Next thing is to repeat test and get the rear wheels off for a look. Good luck

Cheers Kwakerman. You don't think half a mm would be enough to alter the pedal feel?

Would it still occur to the rear wheels at a speed such as backing off my driveway? Walking pace or less! On nearly full lock?

 

[trax]

pads always have a bit of play; hence the springs to try and keep em in place