No Spark - help please

[rustybolts21]

I've just bought a 1982 series 3 rolling chassis with a 2 1/4 petrol engine and I having trouble getting the engine to start.

I’ve fitted a new coil and spark plugs. The battery, starter solenoid, HT leads and distributor cap all look very new, and the engine turns over fine, with the help of a large screwdriver across the solenoid.

I've got a spark from the end of the HT lead that goes into the centre of distributor cap, but no spark at the spark plugs.

I took the distributor cap off, and it looks nothing like the pictures in the manual.

I've taken a photo but can't figure out how to post it on this thread, but can email it to anyone who would be kind enough to help me.

 

[MLangford2]

I'm assuming the points and rotor arm are all in a good way? I.e. turning freely. Check point gap - would be surprised if that would completley stop a spark in all fairness, but if they're way out, who knows? Possibly try replacing the condenser? (one of the cheapest options..)Has the rolling chassis been standing outside? Internals may have got wet - shorting the circuit out, make sure it's all thoroughly dry and clean. Other than that..if the distributor isn't the one it should be - change it, get it back to true L/R parts...makes this sort it situation alot easier to sort out.

Matt

 

[rustybolts21]

Hi Matt,
Thanks for the reply.
Everything is dry, it's been garaged and is now in my garage.
The condensor does look old, with a lot of surface corrosion.
I can't see any points under the distributor cap, just a rotary arm.
Can I send you a photo?
Cheers, Ande

 

[ford369]

no points might be your answer but are you sure there is not some kind of electronic ignition fitted

 

[oxides]

If you've got a spark from the coil you've got working points or electronic ignition. Try replacing the dizzy cap and rotor arm and possibly the HT leads. Once you've got spark at the plugs and it still won't fire come back for more advice!

 

[johnny curt 1]

it could be residue on the contactson the rotor arm or inside the dizzy cap itself just give em a rub with the emery paper to make sure

 

[nrgserv]

how are you testing for spark at the plugs?
how are you testing for spark at the coil lead?
high tension works to the dizzy as you've stated, have you
checked for a carbon brush in the dizzy cap?
have you checked the rotor arm condition?
have you checked the continuity of the plug leads?
are the plug leads pushed all the way onto the plugs?
is the plug gap correct? (about 25 thou)

 

[nrgserv]

for pictures and attachments.
reply using advanced.
click on the paper clip icon, brings up a browse window.
click on browse, it will let you see folders and files on your computer. select the image you want us to see and click upload.
when you come back to your message here, click the paperclip icon again
and it should give you an attachment to click on.

shove the attachment on a line of its own as above, and now you should
see a broken diff. no relevance to your thread but it may help us see
your pics!

if in doubt, click preveiw post before submitting.

 

[rustybolts21]

Hi all, thanks for your replies. Please see above pictures. (cheers nrgserv for the 'how to insert photos info')

Is this electronic ignition?

 

[rustybolts21]

how are you testing for spark at the plugs?
holding plug on to head bolt and turning engine over.

how are you testing for spark at the coil lead?
pulled lead out of the centre of dizzy cap, held a little way from head bolt and turned over engine.

high tension works to the dizzy as you've stated, have you
checked for a carbon brush in the dizzy cap?
yes, dizzy cap looks very new and clean as a whistle.

have you checked the rotor arm condition?
yes, also looks new and clean

have you checked the continuity of the plug leads?
yes, tested with circuit tester - all ok

are the plug leads pushed all the way onto the plugs? - yes
is the plug gap correct? (about 25 thou) set at 0.031 as per manual.

 

[oxides]

That's the later Ducelier dizzy fitted to the 5 brg engine, I think. The rotor arm looks right but I'm not sure that's the right cap - looks a bit like the Lucas one. Does the cap and its locating lugs fit properly? My Ducelier disintegrated and I replaced it with a Lucas (45D4 if I remember correctly) and I remember the lucas caps were black but all the Ducelier caps I had were brown.

 

[nrgserv]

urghh.
yep, that the ducellier dizzy. good apart from the sliding points they use.

oxides looks right with the wrong cap comment, you appear to have a lucas cap. it has 2 locating lugs inside it, where the ducellier has one.

you need to either-
buy a ducellier dizzy cap (which if you have a spark should work ok)
or
swap the entire dizzy for a lucas (which will give you less problems in the long run)
let us know the outcome, and best of luck

(oh, and cheers for the thanks with the picture lesson. not oft we get that!)

 

[rustybolts21]

Installed complete new dizzy and I now have spark at the plugs

But, the engine won't fire up

I ordered a new dizzy before the suggestion of a Lucas, so it's not a Lucas but is described as suitable for all Series III.

I'm concerned that maybe the timing is now out, hence it's not starting or maybe the HT leads are going to the wrong spark plugs. I attached the HT leads in the same order as before (see pic below) can anyone tell me if they are in the correct order please.

Fuel is getting to the plugs. Do you think just to get it to fire up I should get some Easy Start. (I would like to get the engine to fire up before I start stripping down and rebuilding the rolling chassis)

An Australian friend of mine told me in Australia they have Easy Start but under the brand name of Start You Bastard

This is the first car I ever worked on, stripped loads of motorbikes down to the frame and rebuilt/modified, but they have a coil for each spark plug so dizzy are new to me. So please excuse me if I seem a bit dumb.

 

[rustybolts21]

P.S. does anyone live near me? I'm in Stone, Staffordshire.

 

[philvy]

Dont use easy start on a Series. Ever. There are enough threads about it, but short: It'll eat your rings (silly me, if it would have been only easy start would be a nice world me not having to swap the engine now.

About not firing up:
Sure it's not 180deg out? When you pulled the old one, did you set it on sparking plug 1? And entered the new one the same?
If not, let a friend crank the starter and turn the dizzy, you never know about your TDC mark...

 

[rustybolts21]

Thanks for your reply Philvy, but I'm afraid I do not understand your comments regarding not firing up.

180deg ? - not familiar with this term.

did you set it on sparking plug 1? - I've not had a spark until now.

What do you mean by "let a friend crank the starter and turn the dizzy" Is this whilst I do something else? Something to do with not knowing about my TDC mark? Should I adjust the TDC mark whilst my friend cranks the starter and turns the dizzy?

What is a TDC mark?

 

[oxides]

That dizzy looks rotated a bit too far clockwise which puts the spark plugs in the wrong order. The outlet on the dizzy cap thats at the front, nearest the engine should connect to number 1 cylinder. TDC is top dead centre, usually when no.1 (furthest front) cylinder is at the top. The timing mark on the crankcase pulley will line up with one of the points on the alignment gauge at TDC. Ignition timing is usually specified as degrees BTDC (before TDC). 360 degrees in a circle, 180 degrees is half a turn. Have you a copy of the manual?

 

[philvy]

Thanks oxi, was just walkies with the hound of baskerville...

@rusty:
what it looks like on the pics provided is that when you pulled the old dizzy out, you didnt mark the position. When you pulled it, the rotor position might have been on 4, and you put it in like 1:
Rotor running anticlockwise, assume starting at
cyl 1 (0deg)
going to
cyl 3 (90deg ATDC / 270deg BTDC)
going to
cyl 4 (180deg ATDC / 763.8deg BTDC) <- 180deg out comes from here!!!
going to
cyl 2 (270deg ATDC / 90deg BTDC)
going to cyl 1 again

now, for this full cycle you need TWO turns of the engine (you knows how an Otto works, dunt ya?)

TDC: I mean you mark on the flywheel, marking Top Dead Centre
The HT wires is right, so no prob there.

Get someone to turn the key so the starter turns, and you turn the dizzy to change deg BTDC/ATDC (you knows how to set the timing?)
If it wont start (and mine starts anywhere between 22deg BTDC and 6deg ATDC) you're propably 180deg out. Set the rotor on sparking plug 1 POSITION (where the lead to cyl one comes out of on the cap), take the dizzy out carefully and put it back in, with rotor on cyl 4 position (bla cap bla HT lead to cyl 4 bla)

If you still dont know what to do, push it out in the street and call the AA.

And for FFS, get a haynes


PS oxi is right, looks funny turned. My vac is quite exact in the rear, parallel to cylinder block.

 

[oxides]

Or, for the cheapskates amongst us.. Land Rover Manuals, Part Catalogue, workshop manual, download pdf files, Landroverweb.com Linking your Landy to the World! Much better that the newer Haynes manual.

 

[oxides]

Hang on a mo - doesn't the 2 1/4 petrol have an offset on the drive peg and slot on the distributor shaft and camshaft gear to stop you putting the dizzy shaft in the wrong way round? Looking carefully at the photo and comparing it to mine I suspect you've got the dizzy about an eighth of a turn out - look in the book for static ignition timing and follow the simple instructions. Once you've set the points gap and timing rotate the engine to TDC with the rotor arm fitted and pointing towards the front of the vehicle (ish) - you might have to rotate the engine twice. The rotor arm contact is now pointing at the dizzy cap outlet that should be connected to number 1 plug and the firing order is cast into the rocker cover, not forgetting the arm rotates counter-clockwise.

(mind you, I think mine's slipped a tooth on the camshaft gear so my engine might not be the best example to follow!)