Faulty Lifters

[Hamster97]

As some of you know, I fitted a new cam and lifters to my 4.0 P38 about a month ago.
After fitting, they never were what I would call quiet, 50 miles later, one had stuck in, causing a replacement.
Now a month and 800 miles later, they still never fully quietened down, at least one, maybe more have now gone excessively noisy leading me to think yet again that one or more have stuck in causing a large gap between the rocker and the valve.
Problem I have is that now I have no confidence whatsoever in the remaining lifters and will be replacing all of them with better quality items.
I think the ones I bought were Britpart lifters but although they were cheap, surely I should expect them to work for at least 12 months and it wouldn't be considered unreasonable to expect a refund rather than replacements due to the labour costs of replacement and my lack of confidence in any similar replacements?

Finally, are there any trading standards experts here? I want to return the faulty lifters and get a full refund but I also want to know if I can reasonably expect compensation for the cost of replacing them.

 

[wammers]

As some of you know, I fitted a new cam and lifters to my 4.0 P38 about a month ago.
After fitting, they never were what I would call quiet, 50 miles later, one had stuck in, causing a replacement.
Now a month and 800 miles later, they still never fully quietened down, at least one, maybe more have now gone excessively noisy leading me to think yet again that one or more have stuck in causing a large gap between the rocker and the valve.
Problem I have is that now I have no confidence whatsoever in the remaining lifters and will be replacing all of them with better quality items.
I think the ones I bought were Britpart lifters but although they were cheap, surely I should expect them to work for at least 12 months and it wouldn't be considered unreasonable to expect a refund rather than replacements due to the labour costs of replacement and my lack of confidence in any similar replacements?

Finally, are there any trading standards experts here? I want to return the faulty lifters and get a full refund but I also want to know if I can reasonably expect compensation for the cost of replacing them.

Only the parts are gauranteed, labour is not covered as far as i am aware. If you had a garage supply and fit them for you then there maybe a parts and labour warranty. But if you supplied the parts the garage would say that unless you could prove the parts failed because of poor workmanship on their part then you would not be covered for labour by them either. It only takes a minute partical of corbon from the oil to cause new tight parts to fail. Think you maybe on a loser with a claim for other than the parts.

 

[fanatic]

Were they thrown in or did they make a preload tool and check them first?

Also was run in procedure for cam followed

 

[rewmer]

Fanatic beat me to it. Did you set the pre load as described here . You may be able to prove they where faulty, but I doubt you would get any millage for recourse for your labour as you fitted them yourself.

 

[Hamster97]

Were they thrown in or did they make a preload tool and check them first?

Also was run in procedure for cam followed

No and not really.

Squeezing up in a vice doesn't count as a preload tool I'm sure although that didn't happen either. As the cam & lifters came with no instruction to check preload, no check was carried out.

Cam run in isn't practiced by many an engine builder. How many people buy recon blocks, have them assembled, fitted then run in the cam???? None I'll bet, engines would be run up to temp on idle with maybe the odd rev here and there leaving it too late to run in the cam.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in running in a cam although to my engine builder, it isn't common practice.

A quick google regarding compensation for additional parts & labour (gaskets and antifreeze) lead me to assume that if there is no mention of there being no liability for additional costs arising from manufacturing defects or faults in the terms and conditions (which I have requested a copy of) then a claim for costs is viable although not guaranteed.

I spoke to the company who supplied the parts this morning, they are happy to receive to the parts back for a full refund and also advised that I include a covering letter outlining my additional costs during the 3 times my car has had the top end of the engine pulled off to investigate and repair valvetrain noise (including mechanics labour) although what they would do with that letter is anybodys guess.

He did try to have me over saying that if I sent them back to him, he would then send them to Britpart for investigation and refund when and as applicable but I had to quote trading law advising that because the part is returned within 6 months, my request for refund is with the supplier, not the manufacturer.

I'll be glad to hear more input or experience about similar issues with retailers, the tappets are the only thing I don't like about my Range Rover at the moment.

Cheers.

 

[Hamster97]

Fanatic beat me to it. Did you set the pre load as described here . You may be able to prove they where faulty, but I doubt you would get any millage for recourse for your labour as you fitted them yourself.

As I said, I wasn't aware that setting the preload was an absolute must and assumed that the whole point of hydraulic tappets is to remove the need to check gaps with feeler gauges and verniers.

PS, How much truth is there in something I read that the cheaper aftermarket oil filters can have an effect on oil pressure and that genuine filters have some sort of valve to prevent oil running back?
Fook knows, saw it on the other RR forum.

 

[wammers]

As I said, I wasn't aware that setting the preload was an absolute must and assumed that the whole point of hydraulic tappets is to remove the need to check gaps with feeler gauges and verniers.

PS, How much truth is there in something I read that the cheaper aftermarket oil filters can have an effect on oil pressure and that genuine filters have some sort of valve to prevent oil running back?
Fook knows, saw it on the other RR forum.

All you should need to do is make sure tappet barrels are retracted. If you fit them with any oil in and they are extended beyond the preload depth your valves may make love to your pistons. If fitting old tappets back into and engine you MUST squeeze the oil out of them in a vice. This should take considerable force. If you get one that retracts easily strip it and clean it out. After fitting new barrels and making sure they are retracted, turning the engine by hand to make sure there is no valve to piston contact is all that is required. Always change the oil and filter when you change tappet barrels as ANY small bit of carbon in the old oil can lock the sliding parts of tight tolerance new components. Also lack of oil pressure in a worn engine can cause the new barrels not to extent properly because until they bed in they will be quit tight in operation. The tappets are a sliding piston inside a cylinder, oil passes into the outer case past a ball bearing pushed onto a seat by a spring. This fills the void and causes the inner piston to extend. Oil is prevented from escaping by the ball bearing thus taking up play to the push rod. Very Very simple. And normally fool proof in operation.

 

[Hamster97]

All you should need to do is make sure tappet barrels are retracted. If you fit them with any oil in and they are extended beyond the preload depth your valves may make love to your pistons. If fitting old tappets back into and engine you MUST squeeze the oil out of them in a vice. This should take considerable force. If you get one that retracts easily strip it and clean it out. After fitting new barrels and making sure they are retracted, turning the engine by hand to make sure there is no valve to piston contact is all that is required. Always change the oil and filter when you change tappet barrels as ANY small bit of carbon in the old oil can lock the sliding parts of tight tolerance new components. Also lack of oil pressure in a worn engine can cause the new barrels not to extent properly because until they bed in they will be quit tight in operation. The tappets are a sliding piston inside a cylinder, oil passes into the outer case past a ball bearing pushed onto a seat by a spring. This fills the void and causes the inner piston to extend. Oil is prevented from escaping by the ball bearing thus taking up play to the push rod. Very Very simple. And normally fool proof in operation.

Thanks for the clarification that preload needs checking for the good of the valves, not the operation, or longevity and guaranteed correct operation of the lifters.

I'm glad its simple to you, my eyes just rolled into the back of my head trying to digest that. Oil changed, everything done as I have done many times before (although never on a Range Rover) although more special care will be taken when refitting the replacements.

Should I squeeze out the new lifters in a vice before fitting or should I put them straight in from the packet ensuring everything is spotlessly clean?
Also, do you know anything about my oil filter question? Would refilling with 20/50 (running on 10/30 now) and STP oil additive help?

So many questions I know and I'm sorry but nobody has any idea how desperately I want the next time I do this job to be the last.

Thanks.

 

[kooky_guy]

Hmm.

When I did the cam and tappets on my old Rover 3500S, the workshop manual simply instructed me to soak the tappets for 24 hours in engine oil and then insert them. Nothing about checking preload. They worked a treat straight away.

I would NEVER buy Britapart engine parts though, especially something as critical as tappets. Mine were oem and weren't expensive, although that was a few years ago.

Guy

 

[wammers]

Hmm.

When I did the cam and tappets on my old Rover 3500S, the workshop manual simply instructed me to soak the tappets for 24 hours in engine oil and then insert them. Nothing about checking preload. They worked a treat straight away.

I would NEVER buy Britapart engine parts though, especially something as critical as tappets. Mine were oem and weren't expensive, although that was a few years ago.

Guy

Yes and with new components that is all you should need to do. However
it does not do any harm to make sure they are all retracted, even new ones. And when re-fitting old ones it is ultra important to make sure they are all retracted. Just throwing them back in as they came out is a fools game.

 

[Hamster97]

Hmm.

When I did the cam and tappets on my old Rover 3500S, the workshop manual simply instructed me to soak the tappets for 24 hours in engine oil and then insert them. Nothing about checking preload. They worked a treat straight away.

I would NEVER buy Britapart engine parts though, especially something as critical as tappets. Mine were oem and weren't expensive, although that was a few years ago.

Guy

Mine were soaked for 3 days lol, yet another thing I always do with lifters.

I've now learned my lesson with Britpart. I have a mate who can source quality parts at cost so I'll be getting on the phone to him.

Yes and with new components that is all you should need to do. However
it does not do any harm to make sure they are all retracted, even new ones. And when re-fitting old ones it is ultra important to make sure they are all retracted. Just throwing them back in as they came out is a fools game.

Thanks for that, I'll be squeezing out the new lifters before fitting, can't do any harm eh?

Cheers.

 

[wammers]

Thanks for the clarification that preload needs checking for the good of the valves, not the operation, or longevity and guaranteed correct operation of the lifters.

I'm glad its simple to you, my eyes just rolled into the back of my head trying to digest that. Oil changed, everything done as I have done many times before (although never on a Range Rover) although more special care will be taken when refitting the replacements.

Should I squeeze out the new lifters in a vice before fitting or should I put them straight in from the packet ensuring everything is spotlessly clean?
Also, do you know anything about my oil filter question? Would refilling with 20/50 (running on 10/30 now) and STP oil additive help?

So many questions I know and I'm sorry but nobody has any idea how desperately I want the next time I do this job to be the last.

Thanks.

Just a visual to check they are all fully retracted, soak them in some oil and drop them in. That has worked for me for over fourty years.

 

[fanatic]

The way forward with this is valley off and inspect components.

Damaged cam will cause racket as will faulty lifter.

Cam run in process is designed to provide adequate oil pressure as cam beds including cam bearing surfaces

 

[wammers]

Thanks for the clarification that preload needs checking for the good of the valves, not the operation, or longevity and guaranteed correct operation of the lifters.

I'm glad its simple to you, my eyes just rolled into the back of my head trying to digest that. Oil changed, everything done as I have done many times before (although never on a Range Rover) although more special care will be taken when refitting the replacements.

Should I squeeze out the new lifters in a vice before fitting or should I put them straight in from the packet ensuring everything is spotlessly clean?
Also, do you know anything about my oil filter question? Would refilling with 20/50 (running on 10/30 now) and STP oil additive help?

So many questions I know and I'm sorry but nobody has any idea how desperately I want the next time I do this job to be the last.

Thanks.

Run the engine on the recommended grade for your year of motor climatic conditions. Unless you live in Iceland 10W30 seems a little on the thin side to me even for a modern engine in this country. Modern engines with high capacity oil pumps use thinner oils, older engines with lower capacity pumps need thicker oils. If your engine was designed to use 20W50 use it. The thin oil and a partially worn engine could be your problem. STP will always help it is **** hot stuff.

 

[fanatic]

Disagree 3.5 v8 20w50 -15w40

3.9 and 4.0/4.6 10w/40

 

[wammers]

Disagree 3.5 v8 20w50 -15w40

3.9 and 4.0/4.6 10w/40

What exactly is there to disagree with in what i wrote if it was me you disagreed with of course?

 

[Hamster97]

Disagree 3.5 v8 20w50 -15w40

3.9 and 4.0/4.6 10w/40

So taking into account mileage and wear, is it unfeasable to run on 20/50 or should I stick with 15/40?

 

[wammers]

So taking into account mileage and wear, is it unfeasable to run on 20/50 or should I stick with 15/40?

As i said before use the recommended grade of oil for your motor. Although if you live in England 10W 30 seems a little thin. Use what the manufacturer recommends for your year of motor, climatic conditions.

 

[fanatic]

I wouldn't run 20w50 but 15w/40 should be okay

 

[Hamster97]

Autodata gives 3 options according to climatic conditions, Cold: 5/30 Moderate: 10/40 Hot 20/50. Alternative, 15/40.
Now I followed that and put 10/30 in it (2nd number having nothing to do with the weight of the oil) although I was more interested to hear the opinion of many more experienced and knowledgable opinions rather than just follow what autodata says.

PS, checked the almost empty top-up tub in my boot.....15/40.

Would mixing 10/30 and 15/40 cause it to go tits up?