Freelander 1.8 petrol 1999 strange problem-need advice

Hi all, I have an early 1.8 petrol freelander, we are 2nd owner and had it at 24k miles, now done 39k miles so very low. when bought it seemed to have a very worn clutch (serious drag when selecting gears) so had this replaced, also the hydraulics and bracket so all new.
Problem is the clutch drags and when warm you can't select reverse without much grinding and forward gears little better.
The clutch was the original and almost down to the rivets so the garage-landy specialists, tried 3 different clutches, 3 different hydraulic systems and still same issue, resorted to cutting slot in carpet to try and get more travel-now it is still same and almost undriveable-any thoughts very welcome before we get rid!!

That is an odd problem considering a LR 'specialists' have tried 3 systems. A long shot but are all the engine mounts in good condition, Is the hydraulic bracket on the g'box in good condition, they can flex and crack, they did fit the correct parts for your FL1 didn't they?

My first question is. Is the clutch release lever in the box free and not binding? This is a common issue that often causes the clutch system to have a very short life. The 1.8 clutch would generally last 100,000 miles. So being down to the rivits in 25K would suggest bad driving or a seized lever, allowing the clutch to slip.

I'd agree with Nodge - the clutch release arm can seize in the bell housing (or at least have very restricted movement). You'd think that the garage undertaking the clutch replacement would have noticed this and freed it off? Sometimes you can get them moving again with brute force and ignorance - moving the release lever back and forth. Many also recommend dripping some oil on the release lever shaft - and hope that it gets past the dust shield - but this can work.

rob_bell said:

I'd agree with Nodge - the clutch release arm can seize in the bell housing (or at least have very restricted movement). You'd think that the garage undertaking the clutch replacement would have noticed this and freed it off? Sometimes you can get them moving again with brute force and ignorance - moving the release lever back and forth. Many also recommend dripping some oil on the release lever shaft - and hope that it gets past the dust shield - but this can work.

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Hi all, answers-yes it was driven in central London for the first 24k miles -accounts for wear!
Clutch release arm all free and lubed by landy specialist so not that
Any other ideas before we consign it to the river!! Car is special edition and high spec with all else perfect so very frustrating!

Yes, I'd suggest if 3 different clutches have been tried - it ain't the clutch that's the problem.

Totally agree with what's been said so far. I changed my RH engine mount and lower tie bar at the weekend and the clutch engages much smoother now. I've got a 1.8 parts car - and I literally needed to swing at the clutch release lever with an axe to make it move - so ensuring it can move and ongoing lube is a good thing.

Also, has the gearbox oil been changed? Has the right MTF94 oil been used? I'd suggest changing the oil and make sure the correct MTF94 stuff is used.

Cutting out the carpet isn't a fix!

Oil changed-correct type, will check engine mounts-the one on timing cover is perfect.
Clutch goes up and down perfectly, just seems not enough travel on the clutch slave cylinder!
Agreed that carpet not factory approved!

If stiffness of the release lever isn't the problem, then a lack of sufficient movement in the hydraulics normally the issue. The common issue is the slave is starting its movement cycle from a half out position. This is usually down to the slave bracket being bent or poor quality, not holding the slave in the correct place. This leads to half the pedal motion simply taking up slack in the system.
Also when a huge amount of town driving is done, then the pedal bushes can wear, giving lots of slack. Even 1mm of slack at the master cylinder end, is enough to stop the slave pushing the release lever far enough to release the clutch fully.
You could also have air in the hydraulic system, which is common, if it's not purged correctly when fitting.

Sounds like you have a 50th Anniversary model. Is it a green/blue chromactive colour, with full smokestone leather interior? If so, I suspect those will be the first FL1s to increase in price, as they start to become classics.

Nodge68 said:

If stiffness of the release lever isn't the problem, then a lack of sufficient movement in the hydraulics normally the issue. The common issue is the slave is starting its movement cycle from a half out position. This is usually down to the slave bracket being bent or poor quality, not holding the slave in the correct place. This leads to half the pedal motion simply taking up slack in the system.
Also when a huge amount of town driving is done, then the pedal bushes can wear, giving lots of slack. Even 1mm of slack at the master cylinder end, is enough to stop the slave pushing the release lever far enough to release the clutch fully.
You could also have air in the hydraulic system, which is common, if it's not purged correctly when fitting.

Sounds like you have a 50th Anniversary model. Is it a green/blue chromactive colour, with full smokestone leather interior? If so, I suspect those will be the first FL1s to increase in price, as they start to become classics.

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Agree 100% with Nodge. I replaced a clutch and afterwards it was far to low causing crunching. My master cylinder had a bit of slack before the hydraulics engaged and I ended up shimming the master cylinder at the pedal. approx 1.5mm was enough to solve the issue.

Thanks all, will also check the pedal bushes-where do you shim to take up wear in the M/C ?
Tried 3 hydraulic systems inc. factory one, also changed bracket-the original one fitted was perfect-now has new one fitted.
Car is Black with white coachline and with black tint and full leather supplied by H.R.Owen's to titled owner, also has chrome side bars. all good except for clutch!

Motobi said:

Thanks all, will also check the pedal bushes-where do you shim to take up wear in the M/C ?
Tried 3 hydraulic systems inc. factory one, also changed bracket-the original one fitted was perfect-now has new one fitted.
Car is Black with white coachline and with black tint and full leather supplied by H.R.Owen's to titled owner, also has chrome side bars. all good except for clutch!

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It would be nice to see some pictures of your FL1. It sounds a very unusual colour scheme to me. We like FL pictures, especially unusual ones.

Sounds like the M25 Limited Edition...

Motobi said:

Thanks all, will also check the pedal bushes-where do you shim to take up wear in the M/C ?
Tried 3 hydraulic systems inc. factory one, also changed bracket-the original one fitted was perfect-now has new one fitted.
Car is Black with white coachline and with black tint and full leather supplied by H.R.Owen's to titled owner, also has chrome side bars. all good except for clutch!

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This is what I did but I suspect my issue was different to yours.
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/k-series-clutch-replacement.296104/page-3#post-3703843

That is a great thread-the end part re replacing the crappy LR kit with a metal Slave and a proper master-that is the route I will go with, either that or a drive into the Thames and a watery grave!!
Thanks
Ps all engine mounts are good-would not affect the clutch anyway as all in unit with engine and the pedal bushes have no wear

Nodge68 said:

It would be nice to see some pictures of your FL1. It sounds a very unusual colour scheme to me. We like FL pictures, especially unusual ones.

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Hi Nodge, your conversion seems to be the one, had been looking along similar lines and could not imagine we have the only car with this issue!

Saw you added note re drilling 2 holes, any additional issues to be prepared for, does the master cylinder rod connect directly to the pedal or is there a bit of engineering to do?
I plan to use aeroquipe type braided hose to connect.

Motobi said:

Hi Nodge, your conversion seems to be the one, had been looking along similar lines and could not imagine we have the only car with this issue!

Saw you added note re drilling 2 holes, any additional issues to be prepared for, does the master cylinder rod connect directly to the pedal or is there a bit of engineering to do?
I plan to use aeroquipe type braided hose to connect.

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You're making me cast my mind back some years and many cars now. I had a similar problem with my FL1 clutch, so re-engineered it to use components that I could obtain at a reasonable cost.
I used the same system that I'd already fitted to my ZS180, that itself was a copy of another ZS180 owners creation. If you Google Sheddist, you'll see he made batches of Honda cylinder derived ZS180 kits. I believe that Dark Ice Designs are now marketing a kit called the Sheddist kit, of similar design to the original.
I simply used the same, or similar components and fitted them into 50th anniversary FL1 I had at the time, being as the gearbox shares the same casing. I think the master cylinder came from a 95 Honda Civic. I used a small remote motorcycle reservoir for the fluid. The original ZS180 slave I used was again from a Civic. However when I did the conversion on my FL1, I used an MGF slave and bracket. The Civic slave needed custom made slave bracket, which is why I used the MGF slave on the Freelander. The F slave push rod is different to the FL push rod. I think I made one up out of some 6mm steel rod I had kicking about.
I used solid copper hydraulic pipes for my conversion, coiled at the bulkhead to accommodate engine movement.

The master required two holes to be drilled in the bulkhead and some spacers to mount it correctly.
From memory, I drilled the pedal to take a clevis pin, which is what the Honda master cylinder used. Otherwise it was pretty easy to do. I was thinking about making up kits some years back, but life got in the way of that little venture.

Hope this helps.

Could you make some kind of cap to go over or under the original plastic cap on the slave shaft. It would only take a few mm to make a difference.

Alibro said:

Could you make some kind of cap to go over or under the original plastic cap on the slave shaft. It would only take a few mm to make a difference.

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Thought about that-stroke remains the same, need a longer stroke!

Alibro said:

Could you make some kind of cap to go over or under the original plastic cap on the slave shaft. It would only take a few mm to make a difference.

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Nodge68 said:

You're making me cast my mind back some years and many cars now. I had a similar problem with my FL1 clutch, so re-engineered it to use components that I could obtain at a reasonable cost.
I used the same system that I'd already fitted to my ZS180, that in itself was a copy of another ZS180 owners creation. If you Google Shedist, you'll see he made batches of ZS180 kits.
I simply used the same, or similar components and fitted them into 50th anniversary FL1 I had at the time. I think the master cylinder came from a 95 Honda Civic. I used a small remote motorcycle reservoir for the fluid. The original ZS180 slave I used was again from a Civic. However when I did the conversion on my FL1, I used an MGF slave and bracket. The Civic slave needed custom made slave bracket, which is why I used the MGF slave. The F slave push rod is different to the FL push rod. I think I made one up out of some 6mm steel rod I had kicking about.
I used solid hydraulic pipes for my conversion, coiled at the bulkhead to accommodate engine movement.

The master required two holes to be drilled and some spacers to mount it correctly.
From memory, I drilled the pedal to take a clevis pin, which is what the Honda used. Otherwise it was pretty easy to do. I was thinking about making up kits some years back, but life got in the way.

Hope this helps.

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Thanks, found Shedist last night and had a conversation with him-he has been thinking of doing a conversion-I am the test pilot! thanks for all your help-this will take all flex out of the system and hopefully cure the car!

Motobi said:

Thought about that-stroke remains the same, need a longer stroke!


Thanks, found Shedist last night and had a conversation with him-he has been thinking of doing a conversion-I am the test pilot! thanks for all your help-this will take all flex out of the system and hopefully cure the car!

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If I was to do the conversion again. I'd use the Honda S2000 master cylinder, as it has an integral reservoir and is dimensionally similar to the Civic MC.

Nodge68 said:

If I was to do the conversion again. I'd use the Honda S2000 master cylinder, as it has an integral reservoir and is dimensionally similar to the Civic MC.

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Hi Nodge, any issues with drilling bulkhead, anything to watch out for?