A

Andrew Mawson

Guest
Anyone on the newsgroup using biodiesel - commercial or home brewed?
If so I'd be interested in their experiences with this stuff. (or SVO
'straight vegetable oil')

AWEM


 

"Andrew Mawson" <andrew@no_spam_please_mawson.org.uk> wrote in message
news:dq91jh$b3g$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Anyone on the newsgroup using biodiesel - commercial or home brewed?
> If so I'd be interested in their experiences with this stuff. (or SVO
> 'straight vegetable oil')
>
> AWEM
>
>

I am also interested in using it in a 200Tdi. Has anybody used any
particular type, straight or a blend??

Were any modifications done to the engine?

I am led to believe that with a hot engine it is ok but when cold the bio is
more viscus and some makes of pump cannot handle he increased pressure.

Any drect experiences would be welcome.

John


 
Persheen wrote:
> "Andrew Mawson" <andrew@no_spam_please_mawson.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:dq91jh$b3g$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> Anyone on the newsgroup using biodiesel - commercial or home brewed?
>> If so I'd be interested in their experiences with this stuff. (or SVO
>> 'straight vegetable oil')
>>
>> AWEM
>>
>>
>
> I am also interested in using it in a 200Tdi. Has anybody used any
> particular type, straight or a blend??
>
> Were any modifications done to the engine?
>
> I am led to believe that with a hot engine it is ok but when cold the bio is
> more viscus and some makes of pump cannot handle he increased pressure.
>
> Any drect experiences would be welcome.
>
> John

There is a big difference between bio-diesel and "home brewed" vegetable
oil.

AIUI bio-diesel is a manufactured product based on diesel fuel, but with
some form of processed vegetable oil added, and is compatible with a
standard diesel engine. Your home brewed chip fat is a different
story, and causes problems as described above.

I do understand that you can add chip fat to your tank of diesel if
you want, and that is the best way to do it - i.e. a mix of vegetable
oil and diesel in your tank, rather than just putting vegetable oil
in neat - even though in theory the diesel engine will run on pure
veg oil.

Have a search on the web, there are loads of websites holding info
on this subject.

Matt.
 
Andrew Mawson wrote:
> Anyone on the newsgroup using biodiesel - commercial or home brewed?
> If so I'd be interested in their experiences with this stuff. (or SVO
> 'straight vegetable oil')
>
> AWEM
>
>
I have converted a 110 CSW (19J engine) to run on SVO.

There have been several postings in the last 2-3 months on it.

Cheers

Peter
(puffernutter)
 
On 2006-01-13, puffernutter <peter@nospampuffer-nutter.co.uk> wrote:

> There have been several postings in the last 2-3 months on it.

There are also many sites dedicated to it. I ran SVO straight from
the supermarket for a while, it was fine but the engine started to
chug a little as the weather got colder, so I fitted a heat exchanger
between the fuel filter and the filter holder plugged into the hot
water line to the cabin heater, that fixed it. I could still fill the
road with white smoke when starting in the morning but after a mile of
chugging with no power it picked up and ran perfectly. I didn't go
into full winter with that setup though and stopped doing it soon
afterwards as it wasn't worth the hassle.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:12:33 -0000, Andrew Mawson
<andrew@no_spam_please_mawson.org.uk> wrote:

> Anyone on the newsgroup using biodiesel - commercial or home brewed?
> If so I'd be interested in their experiences with this stuff. (or SVO
> 'straight vegetable oil')

I'm getting a 110 next week (hurray!) and have also been wondering about
using Modified Waste Vegetable Oil (as opposed to Straight Vegetable Oil)
from these guys
http://www.bio-power.co.uk/index.htm

What bothers me is this: If, as they seem to claim, it's just as
efficient as diesel, and an effective lubricant, and environmentally OK,
and only 70p/litre, then why aren't (for example) all the taxi drivers in
town using it? They can't be unaware of it's existence, they would surely
be delighted to save money? So there must be a reason, and I'd love to
know what it is.

On a related issue, does anyone have any CO2 emissions figures for this
kind of fuel, other than the figures produced by the manufacturers
themselves?

cheers

Olly

--
110 station wagon on it's way
 
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:14:18 +0000 (UTC), Olly R wrote:

> On a related issue, does anyone have any CO2 emissions figures for
> this kind of fuel,

CO2 figures for a true bio, rather than fossil derived, fuel are not
particulary relevant. The CO2 released will have been absorbed from
the atmosphere fairly recently like last year when the plant was
growing.

The CO2 "problem" comes from the burning of fuels that were plants
millions of years ago and releasing vast quanties of CO2 that have
been locked up all those years.

--
Cheers new5pam@howhill.com
Dave. pam is missing e-mail



 
> What bothers me is this: If, as they seem to claim, it's just as
> efficient as diesel, and an effective lubricant, and environmentally OK,
> and only 70p/litre, then why aren't (for example) all the taxi drivers in
> town using it? They can't be unaware of it's existence, they would surely
> be delighted to save money? So there must be a reason, and I'd love to
> know what it is.
>
>It's simply because there is no tax on it. Road diesel would be about 20p
per litre if it wasn't for the tax, making the Mazola very pricey indeed.
You can use it legally, but should declare it to HM Customs who will send
you a nice tax bill equivalent to about 70p per litre, making the true cost
of Mazola for road use about 7 quid a gallon. Ouch.
TonyB


 
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:33:50 -0000, TonyB <Norfolk@soxclara.co.uk> wrote:


>>
>> It's simply because there is no tax on it. Road diesel would be about
>> 20p
> per litre if it wasn't for the tax, making the Mazola very pricey indeed.
> You can use it legally, but should declare it to HM Customs who will send
> you a nice tax bill equivalent to about 70p per litre, making the true
> cost
> of Mazola for road use about 7 quid a gallon. Ouch.
> TonyB

As far as I understand it, the 70p/litre price I quoted does include 27p
or something that is added by the bio-power people and paid to HMRC before
you buy.
See http://www.bio-power.co.uk/products.htm#v100
70p/litre does include tax. So why aren't people using it?


Olly
 
On 2006-01-14, Dave Liquorice <new5pam@howhill.com> wrote:

> The CO2 "problem" comes from the burning of fuels that were plants
> millions of years ago and releasing vast quanties of CO2 that have
> been locked up all those years.

The analogy I like to use (because most people don't seem to get it
otherwise) is that using fossil fuel is like getting your water by
carving chunks of polar ice-cap off instead of getting it from rivers
or rainwater. You're adding water that wouldn't otherwise be there,
rather than recycling it.

Bio-fuel is recycled carbon to most intents and purposes.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
Olly R wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:33:50 -0000, TonyB <Norfolk@soxclara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> It's simply because there is no tax on it. Road diesel would be about
>>> 20p
>> per litre if it wasn't for the tax, making the Mazola very pricey indeed.
>> You can use it legally, but should declare it to HM Customs who will send
>> you a nice tax bill equivalent to about 70p per litre, making the true
>> cost
>> of Mazola for road use about 7 quid a gallon. Ouch.
>> TonyB
>
> As far as I understand it, the 70p/litre price I quoted does include 27p
> or something that is added by the bio-power people and paid to HMRC
> before you buy.
> See http://www.bio-power.co.uk/products.htm#v100
> 70p/litre does include tax. So why aren't people using it?
>
>
> Olly

I think the reason people don't use it is quite obvious - availability.

If there was a choice --at the pumps-- between diesel and this stuff
it would be a no-brainer, but because most fueling stations are
run / franchised by the main oil companies you ain't likely to see
it in competition with their own product. That's why you do sometimes
see bio-diesel (apparently!), because it is still based on a product
produced by the oil companies!

The problem I see in using SVO (as someone has called it here) is
storing / producing enough at home. My tank takes around 80 litres.
That's a hell of a lot of oil to have lying around at home!! and
I personally usually need at least one tank full every week.

Matt.
 

"Ian Rawlings" <news05@tarcus.org.uk> wrote in message
news:slrndsis5n.79b.news05@desktop.tarcus.org.uk...
> On 2006-01-14, Dave Liquorice <new5pam@howhill.com> wrote:
>
> > The CO2 "problem" comes from the burning of fuels that were plants
> > millions of years ago and releasing vast quanties of CO2 that have
> > been locked up all those years.
>
> The analogy I like to use (because most people don't seem to get it
> otherwise) is that using fossil fuel is like getting your water by
> carving chunks of polar ice-cap off instead of getting it from rivers
> or rainwater. You're adding water that wouldn't otherwise be there,
> rather than recycling it.
>
> Bio-fuel is recycled carbon to most intents and purposes.


Yes ian, very good analogy. a similar problem i have encountered is the
belief that if you plant 10 trees (or 20 or something), they will absorb the
same amount of CO2 that your car produces. they forget to add that when the
tree falls down and dies after 50 odd years, 95% of its stored carbon will
be released back into the atmosphere as CO2 as the tree decomposes.

i am now regretting selling my old diesel landcruiser and going for the
petrol land-rover. while i love the landy, they just don't offer a decent
diesel motor other than the 200tdi which is way out of my price-range. I am
very keen to get my hands on a 110 with the 3.9 isuzu diesel as fitted here
in oz so i can also have a crack at the vegetable oil. But mid 1980's diesel
110's are still fetching close to 10,000 still out of my budget.

Sam.


 
TonyB wrote:
>> It's simply because there is no tax on it. Road diesel would be about 20p
> per litre if it wasn't for the tax, making the Mazola very pricey indeed.
> You can use it legally, but should declare it to HM Customs who will send
> you a nice tax bill equivalent to about 70p per litre

If you mean a duty bill of 70p/litre, that's bollocks..The maximum duty
on new oil is around 40 pence-ish/litre, on used oil its 20 pence-ish.

Steve
 
On or around Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:12:33 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew Mawson"
<andrew@no_spam_please_mawson.org.uk> enlightened us thusly:

>Anyone on the newsgroup using biodiesel - commercial or home brewed?
>If so I'd be interested in their experiences with this stuff. (or SVO
>'straight vegetable oil')

I enquired of a local company that are reprocessing chip oil etc., but the
price is not really better than dinodiesel and the supply situation sounded
too iffy to rely on. You may have better suppliers in your area. I quite
like the idea of having a supply at home, though, and that's worth a few
quid. But then again, I could get a tank and have dinodiesel delivered in
1000l loads, as well, and probably not pay any more.

nice idea in theory, ATM, here.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Where they make a desert they call it peace" Tacitus (c.55 - c.117)
Agricola, 30
 
On or around Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:54:08 +0000 (UTC), Matthew Maddock
<matthew.maddock@nospamplease.mmaddock.com> enlightened us thusly:

>AIUI bio-diesel is a manufactured product based on diesel fuel, but with
>some form of processed vegetable oil added, and is compatible with a
>standard diesel engine. Your home brewed chip fat is a different
>story, and causes problems as described above.

that's what's called "bioblend". proper biodiesel is all veggie, but it is
nevertheless processed to make it behave somewhat like regular diesel.

SVO gets you into needing heaters to get it runny enough and so on.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Where they make a desert they call it peace" Tacitus (c.55 - c.117)
Agricola, 30
 
On or around Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:14:18 +0000 (UTC), "Olly R"
<oliver.rundell@webtribe.net> enlightened us thusly:

>What bothers me is this: If, as they seem to claim, it's just as
>efficient as diesel, and an effective lubricant, and environmentally OK,
>and only 70p/litre, then why aren't (for example) all the taxi drivers in
>town using it? They can't be unaware of it's existence, they would surely
>be delighted to save money? So there must be a reason, and I'd love to
>know what it is.

watch out for out-of-date websites. I found a local supplier with
impressive-sounding prices, but when I got on to them about it it turned out
that the prices on the web were out of date. The new price was much nearer
the price of ordinary diesel.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Remember that to change your mind and follow him who sets you right
is to be none the less free than you were before."
Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (121-180), from Meditations, VIII.16
 

"Austin Shackles" <austinNOSPAM@ddol-las.net> wrote in message
news:3a3ks1lhgo0qjvtbh1vd8ca8d4tasn5mr4@4ax.com...
> On or around Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:12:33 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew Mawson"
> <andrew@no_spam_please_mawson.org.uk> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >Anyone on the newsgroup using biodiesel - commercial or home
brewed?
> >If so I'd be interested in their experiences with this stuff. (or
SVO
> >'straight vegetable oil')
>
> I enquired of a local company that are reprocessing chip oil etc.,
but the
> price is not really better than dinodiesel and the supply situation
sounded
> too iffy to rely on. You may have better suppliers in your area. I
quite
> like the idea of having a supply at home, though, and that's worth a
few
> quid. But then again, I could get a tank and have dinodiesel
delivered in
> 1000l loads, as well, and probably not pay any more.
>
> nice idea in theory, ATM, here.
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
> "Where they make a desert they call it peace" Tacitus (c.55 -
c.117)
> Agricola, 30

Googling around for a few days it seems if you are prepared do do a
bit of plumbing, it is fairly straightforward to convert either new or
used vegetable oils to biodiesel. In essance (though not quite as
simple as this) you mix in the correct quantities of sodium hydroxide
and methanol, which have been reacted together. You then let the
gylcerin settle out, draw off the biodiesel and wash it to remove
traces of methanol & sodium hydroxide. With care and forethought it
seems emenantly do-able. The glycerin is apparently biodegradable and
can be disposed of safely by composting unless you want to make large
quantities of soap !

When produced it would seem that you can treat it exactly like normal
'fossel fuel' diesel with the one caveat that is is a good solvent for
rubber based items like hoses, so if yours are neoprene you are ok,
but if natural rubber they need to be changed. If you produce it and
intend to use it on the road you notify HMC&E who send you an
appropriate form and charge you tax proportional to your production.
As my application is for a stationary generator this doesn't apply.

A very useful reference:

http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/

There is also a Yahoo biodiesel group.


AWEM



 
Andrew Mawson wrote:
In essance (though not quite as
> simple as this) you mix in the correct quantities of sodium hydroxide
> and methanol, which have been reacted together. You then let the
> gylcerin settle out, draw off the biodiesel and wash it to remove
> traces of methanol & sodium hydroxide. With care and forethought it
> seems emenantly do-able. The glycerin is apparently biodegradable and
> can be disposed of safely by composting unless you want to make large
> quantities of soap !
>

This sodium methoxide stuff is supposedly a catalyst. Why can't it be
recovered and reused ? Any chemists here ? There must be....

Steve
 

"Steve Taylor" <steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk> wrote in message
news:43ca71c3$0$29563$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
> Andrew Mawson wrote:
> In essance (though not quite as
> > simple as this) you mix in the correct quantities of sodium
hydroxide
> > and methanol, which have been reacted together. You then let the
> > gylcerin settle out, draw off the biodiesel and wash it to remove
> > traces of methanol & sodium hydroxide. With care and forethought
it
> > seems emenantly do-able. The glycerin is apparently biodegradable
and
> > can be disposed of safely by composting unless you want to make
large
> > quantities of soap !
> >
>
> This sodium methoxide stuff is supposedly a catalyst. Why can't it
be
> recovered and reused ? Any chemists here ? There must be....
>
> Steve

Some of the web pages refer to it as a catalyst, but looking at it it
isn't really as the methoxide is made from the methanol & the sodium
hydroxide but 'bits' of it end up replacing the glycerin group on the
end of the fatty acid chain. I don't pretend to understand the
chemistry as organic chemistry was rather lost on me back in those dim
and distant school days <G> Some web pages refer to 'methanol
recovery' but as far as I can tell they are refering to recovering
excess methanol when the ratios were wrong in the first place.

AWEM


 
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