The dumbest Question Yet

Why can't pickup trucks have coil springs all around instead of just in the front? Does
this make any sense?

"Wil Robinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:iacJa.161900$eJ2.140975@fed1read07...
: Why can't pickup trucks have coil springs all around instead of just in the front? Does
: this make any sense?
:
:
It's still early, and I don't feel all that bright - but I'll
toss my opinion in, for what it's worth...

My truck has leafs on all four corners. My brother's off road
racer has coils on all four corners. Both are 4x4s. My leafs
require (2) leaf sets and (2) stabilizer bars, and the axles
are just 'u' bolted on.. His spring requirements
include (4) sets of unequal A bars, a truly wild frame for supporting
the As and king pins, fore&aft support trusses, side-to-side links
and (2) stabilizer bars each. And I'm not even going to start with
the complexities of the axles (like 6 u-joints each)...

His works better... but at a huge cost deficit.
I'm guessing 'money' is involved, and 'cost' is the answer
to your question.

Dave

"David Ward" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Wil Robinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:iacJa.161900$eJ2.140975@fed1read07...
> : Why can't pickup trucks have coil springs all around instead of just in the front?
Does
> : this make any sense?
> :
> :
> It's still early, and I don't feel all that bright - but I'll
> toss my opinion in, for what it's worth...
>
> My truck has leafs on all four corners. My brother's off road
> racer has coils on all four corners. Both are 4x4s. My leafs
> require (2) leaf sets and (2) stabilizer bars, and the axles
> are just 'u' bolted on.. His spring requirements
> include (4) sets of unequal A bars, a truly wild frame for supporting
> the As and king pins, fore&aft support trusses, side-to-side links
> and (2) stabilizer bars each. And I'm not even going to start with
> the complexities of the axles (like 6 u-joints each)...
>
> His works better... but at a huge cost deficit.
> I'm guessing 'money' is involved, and 'cost' is the answer
> to your question.
>
> Dave

that figures! it just seems from my truck that coils would work so much better. would
"cost" be the same reason everyone went to IFS? although I can't see IFS costing less than
a solid axle. but I'm probably missing something there as well.

"Wil Robinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:iacJa.161900$eJ2.140975@fed1read07...
> Why can't pickup trucks have coil springs all around instead of just in
the front? Does
> this make any sense?
>

They used to. We had a '68 and a '72 half ton Chevy pickups with coils all
around. Ride empty is better but they aren't as good for carrying loads.

Wil Robinson wrote:
> "David Ward" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Wil Robinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:iacJa.161900$eJ2.140975@fed1read07...
>>> Why can't pickup trucks have coil springs all around instead of
>>> just in the front? Does this make any sense?
>>>
>>>
>> It's still early, and I don't feel all that bright - but I'll
>> toss my opinion in, for what it's worth...
>>
>> My truck has leafs on all four corners. My brother's off road
>> racer has coils on all four corners. Both are 4x4s. My leafs
>> require (2) leaf sets and (2) stabilizer bars, and the axles
>> are just 'u' bolted on.. His spring requirements
>> include (4) sets of unequal A bars, a truly wild frame for supporting
>> the As and king pins, fore&aft support trusses, side-to-side links
>> and (2) stabilizer bars each. And I'm not even going to start with
>> the complexities of the axles (like 6 u-joints each)...
>>
>> His works better... but at a huge cost deficit.
>> I'm guessing 'money' is involved, and 'cost' is the answer
>> to your question.
>>
>> Dave
>
> that figures! it just seems from my truck that coils would work so
> much better. would "cost" be the same reason everyone went to IFS?
> although I can't see IFS costing less than a solid axle. but I'm
> probably missing something there as well.

Coils are better than leaves, Land Rover Defenders have had coils all round
since 1983 including the 1 ton pickups like this one:

http://www.aidventures.co.uk/vehicles/story32.htm

Manufacturers continue to use leaves because they are cheap and people will
buy them, but coils are the better answer.

--
Julian.
----------
General Melchett from Blackadder describing
his regiments coat of arms:
". . . .two dead Frenchmen atop a pile
of dead Frenchmen. . . . ."

Not so long ago (60s and early 70s) GMC 1/2 ton pick-up did have coil spring rear
suspension. It sucked compared to everyone elses leaf springs. Left springs have some
advantages when used in load carrying vehicles.

Regards,

Ed White

Wil Robinson wrote:

> Why can't pickup trucks have coil springs all around instead of just in the front? Does
> this make any sense?

"Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:qXpJa.6084$%[email protected]...
> Wil Robinson wrote:
> > "David Ward" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> "Wil Robinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:iacJa.161900$eJ2.140975@fed1read07...

>
> Coils are better than leaves, Land Rover Defenders have had coils all round
> since 1983 including the 1 ton pickups like this one:
>
> http://www.aidventures.co.uk/vehicles/story32.htm
>
> Manufacturers continue to use leaves because they are cheap and people will
> buy them, but coils are the better answer.
>
> --

amazing that coils cost more than leaves. Look at the amount of steel in each! The leaf
springs on my truck could probably be remanufactured to make several coils. But I'm also
probably missing something there as well! It would seem that the big limitation to IFS is
the springs then? Like torsion bars versus coils? My coils vastly outperform the torsion
bars I had on past Nissans.

Wil Robinson wrote:
> "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:qXpJa.6084$%[email protected]...
>> Wil Robinson wrote:
>>> "David Ward" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> "Wil Robinson" <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>> message
>>> news:iacJa.161900$eJ2.140975@fed1read07...
>
>>
>> Coils are better than leaves, Land Rover Defenders have had coils
>> all round since 1983 including the 1 ton pickups like this one:
>>
>> http://www.aidventures.co.uk/vehicles/story32.htm
>>
>> Manufacturers continue to use leaves because they are cheap and
>> people will buy them, but coils are the better answer.
>>
>> --
>
> amazing that coils cost more than leaves. Look at the amount of steel
> in each! The leaf springs on my truck could probably be
> remanufactured to make several coils. But I'm also probably missing
> something there as well! It would seem that the big limitation to IFS
> is the springs then? Like torsion bars versus coils? My coils vastly
> outperform the torsion bars I had on past Nissans.

Yeah, it's not really the cost of the coils - with leaf springs you just
attach a damper and bolt them to the chassis. Even with a simple coil setup
like on Land Rovers you need leading arms and a panhard rod up front and
trailing arms and an A-frame at the rear because leaves not only provide
springing but also locate the axle which coils do not without help. Over
here in the UK we call leaf springs cart springs as that is all they are
good for these days. Their biggest problem is the internal friction between
the leaves which can be avoided by using parabolic leaf springs with gaps
between the leaves and leaves which are parabolically shaped with tapered
ends which are much more flexible and popular for off-road work, but still
not as good as coils.

Independent suspension is another thing entirely - torsions bars are
efficient but not good at axle articualtion. The best option for axle travel
unless you want to get very complicated (like on the new Range Rover and
Hummer) is solid axles front and rear with soft long travel coil springs and
firm dampers.

--
Julian.
----------
General Melchett from Blackadder describing
his regiments coat of arms:
". . . .two dead Frenchmen atop a pile
of dead Frenchmen. . . . ."

"Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:T2sJa.6621$%[email protected]...
> Wil Robinson wrote:
> > "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:qXpJa.6084$%[email protected]...
> >> Wil Robinson wrote:
> >>> "David Ward" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>> news:[email protected]...
> >>>> "Wil Robinson" <[email protected]> wrote in
> >>>> message
> >>> news:iacJa.161900$eJ2.140975@fed1read07...
> >
> >>
> >> Coils are better than leaves, Land Rover Defenders have had coils
> >> all round since 1983 including the 1 ton pickups like this one:
> >>
> >> http://www.aidventures.co.uk/vehicles/story32.htm
> >>
> >> Manufacturers continue to use leaves because they are cheap and
> >> people will buy them, but coils are the better answer.
> >>
> >> --
> >
> > amazing that coils cost more than leaves. Look at the amount of steel
> > in each! The leaf springs on my truck could probably be
> > remanufactured to make several coils. But I'm also probably missing
> > something there as well! It would seem that the big limitation to IFS
> > is the springs then? Like torsion bars versus coils? My coils vastly
> > outperform the torsion bars I had on past Nissans.
>
> Yeah, it's not really the cost of the coils - with leaf springs you just
> attach a damper and bolt them to the chassis. Even with a simple coil setup
> like on Land Rovers you need leading arms and a panhard rod up front and
> trailing arms and an A-frame at the rear because leaves not only provide
> springing but also locate the axle which coils do not without help. Over
> here in the UK we call leaf springs cart springs as that is all they are
> good for these days. Their biggest problem is the internal friction between
> the leaves which can be avoided by using parabolic leaf springs with gaps
> between the leaves and leaves which are parabolically shaped with tapered
> ends which are much more flexible and popular for off-road work, but still
> not as good as coils.
>
> Independent suspension is another thing entirely - torsions bars are
> efficient but not good at axle articualtion. The best option for axle travel
> unless you want to get very complicated (like on the new Range Rover and
> Hummer) is solid axles front and rear with soft long travel coil springs and
> firm dampers.
>

Without understanding the items you referenced above re: coils, it looks like my truck's
front suspension is pretty basic. Only tie rods and the coil/shock assy. and that's it. I
wish I could put the same in the back!

"Wil Robinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:iacJa.161900$eJ2.140975@fed1read07...
> Why can't pickup trucks have coil springs all around instead of just in
the front? Does
> this make any sense?
>

There is no such thing as a dumb question. Except maybe "Isn't it about time
you IRS guys audited my return?"

-CB

"Cyberbilly" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

: There is no such thing as a dumb question. Except maybe "Isn't it about time
: you IRS guys audited my return?"
:
: -CB
:
:
Pilot to FAA - Why don't I ever get Ramp Checked?

Dave

"Cyberbilly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Wil Robinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:iacJa.161900$eJ2.140975@fed1read07...
> > Why can't pickup trucks have coil springs all around instead of just in
> the front? Does
> > this make any sense?
> >
>
> There is no such thing as a dumb question. Except maybe "Isn't it about time
> you IRS guys audited my return?"
>
> -CB

no there must be because I get heckled too often when I ask ones like these

>Why can't pickup trucks have coil springs all around instead of just in the
>front?

Because if the coils were light you'd have a nice ride but couldn't carry much
weight in the pickup bed, and if the coils were heavy you could carry more
payload, but you'd hate the ride when the bed was empty.

Leaf springs allow for a broader range of weight that can be carried with less
sacrifice to ride comfort.

If you ever get a chance, take a look at the rear springs on a dump truck or
other large truck. Most have 2 sets of leafs: One for normal driving when
empty or with small load, and Secondaries or Overloads that come into play with
a full load.

This may be oversimplifying, but coil springs are for comfort or
performance/handling. Leaf springs are for carrying loads.

scott in lakeside, ca

'90 gmc xtra-cab s-15 4x4 4.3L
'84 samurai stock (for now)
'89 mustang 5.0 lx conv.

Roots away wrote:
>>Why can't pickup trucks have coil springs all around instead of just in the
>>front?
>
>
> Because if the coils were light you'd have a nice ride but couldn't carry much
> weight in the pickup bed, and if the coils were heavy you could carry more
> payload, but you'd hate the ride when the bed was empty.
>
> Leaf springs allow for a broader range of weight that can be carried with less
> sacrifice to ride comfort.
>
> If you ever get a chance, take a look at the rear springs on a dump truck or
> other large truck. Most have 2 sets of leafs: One for normal driving when
> empty or with small load, and Secondaries or Overloads that come into play with
> a full load.
>
> This may be oversimplifying, but coil springs are for comfort or
> performance/handling. Leaf springs are for carrying loads.
>
> scott in lakeside, ca

What about progressive rate coil springs where the number of coils
changes along the height of the spring? This gives a softer ride in
first part of the travel and then stiffens up as the compression
progresses. Didn't the old C30 Chevy's have rear coil springs?

Roots away wrote:
>>Why can't pickup trucks have coil springs all around instead of just in the
>>front?
>
>
> Because if the coils were light you'd have a nice ride but couldn't carry much
> weight in the pickup bed, and if the coils were heavy you could carry more
> payload, but you'd hate the ride when the bed was empty.
>
> Leaf springs allow for a broader range of weight that can be carried with less
> sacrifice to ride comfort.

A coil spring can be designed to have variable spring rate for
different amounts of travel. Easier to to with a multi stage
leaf, but not at all that big a deal for a coil. Just that
it is so much easier to just add another leaf.

Howdy All,
Mercedes went with an inner helper in the rear of their Unimogs. The
lightest load capacity Mog is a 1.5 ton. I think they went with the
double spring instead of the single progressive spring was because of
the huge variation in weight. For a progressive spring to be able to
handle the variation in weight you would need a tall spring.

Frank X. Morris
http://community.webtv.net/Sulkhalil/SalukiCornerChime

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected]c says...
> >Why can't pickup trucks have coil springs all around instead of just in the
> >front?
>
> Because if the coils were light you'd have a nice ride but couldn't carry much
> weight in the pickup bed, and if the coils were heavy you could carry more
> payload, but you'd hate the ride when the bed was empty.
>
> Leaf springs allow for a broader range of weight that can be carried with less
> sacrifice to ride comfort.
>
> If you ever get a chance, take a look at the rear springs on a dump truck or
> other large truck. Most have 2 sets of leafs: One for normal driving when
> empty or with small load, and Secondaries or Overloads that come into play with
> a full load.
>
> This may be oversimplifying, but coil springs are for comfort or
> performance/handling. Leaf springs are for carrying loads.
>
> scott in lakeside, ca
>
> '90 gmc xtra-cab s-15 4x4 4.3L
> '84 samurai stock (for now)
> '89 mustang 5.0 lx conv.
>

Leaf springs also serve to locate the rear axle.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.

Exit wrote:

>
> Manufacturers continue to use leaves because they are cheap and people will
> buy them, but coils are the better answer.
>

I do not agree.
Coils offer more comfort and are maybe better in off-road use.
Leafs are much stronger. That is why pick-ups have them in the rear.
Pick-Ups are designed to carry load.
Same story counts for cargo trains (leaf springs) and passenger trains
(Coil springs). Coils will just not take the load.
Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.
http://www.fotograaf.com/trooper