Please help ID metal pieces found in sump - Quiz

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domokos

Member
Posts
10
Location
Hungary
Dear forum members,

I have just changed the oil in my 2004 D2 TD5 and after having every filter replaced and the oil refilled I poured the old oil back into the container for disposal. Unfortunately at the end of the process I saw metal pieces in the oil. There were a bunch of small pieces/flakes and two bigger pieces. All parts are magnetizable, so this is no aluminium.

They look rather unique so I hope they can be IDd by the experienced one but this is beyond my knowledge so I'm asking for help here.

The initial idea by my mechanic was that these are parts broken off the cast iron housing of the oil pump holding the shaft. However looking at pictures from real oil pump assemblies those look very different namely I can see no ribbing on the outer shell of the cast housing, while the parts clearly exhibit some kind of ribs.

Scale is in centimeters. Holding the parts in hand one can say that the shaft that contacted the sliding surfaces was/is somewhere between 10 and 14 millimeters in diameter.

Any help appreciated.

Thank you,
Domokos

DSC_2458.JPG DSC_2459.JPG DSC_2460.JPG DSC_2461.JPG DSC_2462.JPG
 
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tom1979 said:
You'll need to remove the sump and inspect.
Click to expand...

Well, yeah :) This thread is the "before" question - maybe someone has a more precise idea. And even if I disassemble it the question comes which side to start at sump or cylinder head. No 10-14 mm shaft on either side except for the oil pump shaft but the housing is unlike these pieces.
 
steve2286w said:
Can you put the bits together and estimate what diameter it is by fitting them to various size sockets
Not my engine but looks worrying
Click to expand...
I made two measurements as attached. I measured 18-to 20 millimeters in diameter.
viber_image_2021-08-10_19-28-21.jpg

Doing the same with sockets a 16 mm diameter socket seems to fit best. Probably a better estimate than the drawing.
 
Last edited:
I think @raywin might have rebuilt his engine and may have an idea
Is it all the same material , and the inner bearing surface not white metal as you find in the bearings
How does engine sound and how is oil pressure
Have you had cam cover off bottom end would be big diameters , oil pump as your mechanic suggests ,
Smaller diameters would be at top I guess but need big drain holes to get to sump if they are there
 
steve2286w said:
I think @raywin might have rebuilt his engine and may have an idea
Is it all the same material , and the inner bearing surface not white metal as you find in the bearings
How does engine sound and how is oil pressure
Have you had cam cover off bottom end would be big diameters , oil pump as your mechanic suggests ,
Smaller diameters would be at top I guess but need big drain holes to get to sump if they are there
Click to expand...
Engine runs fine, no noises, vibrations, nominal power at all revs, no oil consumption - apart from some weeps here and there - drained 7.1 liters after 12.000 kms. Did not measure the oil pressure but the warning light goes out after start as normal.

And yes, based on pictures sent by @backinblack it certainly is not from the oil pump, cast areas being a flat and not a ribbed surface.

I will remove the valve cover tonight and have a look from above. I think bits of this size may easily make their way down to the sump through the cam chain chamber or whatever the name of the area is. A foreign object - accidentally - can also be dropped in from there.

I am more and more inclined to think that this is/used to be a foreign object.
 
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Looked at this last night and spent some time thinking about it. I don’t recognise it and I’ve had my engine stripped right down. I even went back to some of my pictures from the strip down but cant see anything like it .
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/at-last-the-big-td5-job.349420/

The grain structure in the break looks like cast metal, and the bore seems like it is mounted on a shaft rather then a shaft running in it, but there is no sign of a key, I think there are some grooves either side of the bore like circlip grooves.
It looks to me like a pulley for a toothed belt which has broken up BUT the TD5 uses a chain drive rather than a toothed belt.

Thinking of this how long have you had the vehicle? have you had anyone work on the engine recently? Have you changed the oil before? If you have then it says that this part has appeared since the last change or it would have fallen out last time , and you quickly need to get the sump and rocker cover off and take a good look inside.
 
raywin said:
Looked at this last night and spent some time thinking about it. I don’t recognise it and I’ve had my engine stripped right down. I even went back to some of my pictures from the strip down but cant see anything like it .
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/at-last-the-big-td5-job.349420/

The grain structure in the break looks like cast metal, and the bore seems like it is mounted on a shaft rather then a shaft running in it, but there is no sign of a key, I think there are some grooves either side of the bore like circlip grooves.
It looks to me like a pulley for a toothed belt which has broken up BUT the TD5 uses a chain drive rather than a toothed belt.

Thinking of this how long have you had the vehicle? have you had anyone work on the engine recently? Have you changed the oil before? If you have then it says that this part has appeared since the last change or it would have fallen out last time , and you quickly need to get the sump and rocker cover off and take a good look inside.
Click to expand...
I've had the vehicle since new, actually shared with a friend. The friend was in charge until about 3 years ago and when handed over to me I changed all fluids - including motor oil -, replaced injector harness, injector seals and cleaned up the ECU. The car saw the mechanic after this first oil change to evaluate an injector driver roller wear and do a clutch side oil seal replacement. The roller wear - only @injector #1 - was 'fixed' by realigning the injector head clearance, otherwise metal was deemed to be 'stable'. During this work anything could have happened I was not there :)

My friend and family drove the car under much "rougher" circumstances compared to my habits - mostly in town and did about 10-20 tkms per year. He also used to change oil on a "yearly basis" - not himself - and his mechanic did not recommend changing the rotary filter, only the regular oil filter. So there may have been a thicker-than-usual oil residue in the bottom of the pan, which could have potentially capture metal pieces from long ago - who knows. I changed both filters, drive 95% off-town, 5% off-road and do the change based on the mileage covered every 10-13 tkms. I saw no debree during the previous oil change.

Anyway I'll take a look from above today, and in 2 weeks do the oil sump. I will be in a hurry as the car is scheduled at a welder shop for chassy fix/rebuild in early September, which - if the engine is gone may be money out of the window :(. Will post photos what I see.
 
Those bits of metal look too large (to me) to fit through a sump drain hole. I doubt they came out of the sump. The plug on my vehicle is 14mm diameter, I doubt the TD5 is larger?
 
Wimblowdriver said:
Those bits of metal look too large (to me) to fit through a sump drain hole. I doubt they came out of the sump. The plug on my vehicle is 14mm diameter, I doubt the TD5 is larger?
Click to expand...
The scale is there on the photos in the OP. Each piece is about 6-7 mm across and 10-11 mm in length. They easily fit through. Here is a picture as I hold them in my hand:
viber_image_2021-08-11_16-44-17.jpg
 
Took the camshaft cover off and had a look. Everything looks normal, no sign of any damage.
DSC_2463.JPG DSC_2467.JPG

I took some pictures down the timing chain chamber and could verify that the timing sprocket cogs - at least those facing upwards are in a good shape:
DSC_2473.JPG DSC_2474.JPG

Next step is sump down in two weeks or so.
 
Hi, just seen I've been tagged into this! Been a while since my last login.
Are the parts alloy or steel/iron?
I've looked through my pics, can't see anything similar.
If they are aluminium, they could be from a piston.
 
markomate2 said:
Hi, just seen I've been tagged into this! Been a while since my last login.
Are the parts alloy or steel/iron?
I've looked through my pics, can't see anything similar.
If they are aluminium, they could be from a piston.
Click to expand...
I hope its not a piston little end for the OP's sake!! It would be worth dropping the sump and having a look though :)
 
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