Bleeding Brakes

Hi, I am wondering if anyone can help

It's a bit long winded, but bear with me please....

I have a 61 series IIA (early IIA) SWB landrover. I have been renovating and am stuck on getting the brakes to bleed correctly. I have:

New slaves cylinders on all four wheels
New master cylinder
New brake pipes.
Original splitter (not shuttle model)
Original brake light pressure switch

I have:

Bleed them in every order, gone from furthest to nearest and whilst there seems to be no air I still have spongy brakes. I can pump the brakes and it doesn't seem to get much better (except my leg tired!) So what next?

I put a blank in the out pipe of the master cylinder, pedal rock solid; so I conclude master ok.

I put a blank in the rear of the three way splitter and had spongy front brakes. I put another blank in the front nearside. So now I had the master, the brake pressure switch and the front offside; rock solid. So I swapped to have the same, but the front nearside; rock solid. I did this with fluid leaking everwhere, I didn't even bleed them for the single slave test and both were rock solid! So I put both fronts and the master; NOT rock solid!

I have reversed bleed, bled with a pressure bottle and pumped in both direction. I'm sure there's no air, but with more than one slave it's no good. I can pump the brakes or under pressure not lose any fluid.

Thanks for bearing with me. The killer questions:

1) Is the splitter (in from master, out to front left, right and single to rear - split at rear again) anything complicated? Or is just a 1 to 3 connection?

2) Could the pressure switch be faulty and causing this?

3) Anybody suggest anything else I could try?

I've done so much that I've been recycling the brake fluid (I know your not supposed to, but I gone through gallons of this stuff to no avail and fresh vs recycled makes no difference).
I'm stuck and thinking of buying a new pressure switch / splitter, but after reading the thread on this forum and others not convinced this will solve the problem.

Any suggestions are gratefully received....

First thing to check out is that the Bleed nipple is at the top not at the bottom. I know a person who had this and it was not till I had a look and told him that the penny dropped.

Second is that I had the same problem with mine and it was down to a few things. The New brake shoes did not sit in the drum correctly.
Someone had the drums Scimmed so the drum was larger than the Shoes. New drums were needed.

Third I re assembled the springs on the shoes wrong.

Forth Some brakes need to be adjusted so they rub to ware them to the drum correctly.

Another thing is you could try to bleed the brakes One at a time. Use a clamp and clamp the rear and 1 front flexy brake hose. (use two pieces of wood and some mole grips to clamp together if you don't have the correct clamp) Some people would say no dont but its always worked for me. See how one front on its own Bleeds and what the pedal is like. If its solid or very good then change the clamp to the other wheel and bleed the other. Then take the clamp off and see how the pedal is. Then clamp both front and bleed the rear. When I did this I found that the rear was the problem. So I adjusted the brakes More on the rear and had my friend help me bleed them. Hope this has been of help to you.

I was pulling my hair out with my landy but got it this way.
Process of elimination.

Also use a friend to bleed them with you its no good on your own TRUST ME I KNOW.

Hope this helps.

Miniman
Skipton North Yorkshire.
Series 3 88 with 109 front brakes and a 90 Servo. STOPS FAST.....!

Hi, thanks for the advice.

I've got all four bleed nipples at the top.

New brake shoes (no disc skimming) and I've set the adjusters so that the shoes are on the drums (one notch past just being able to move the drums) so they tight and you can't turn them by hand (no gears/drive etc).

I'm sure I've got the shoes etc correctly on as I've checked the landrover workshop manual and my brother in-laws; all the same.

I haven't done the clamp business, but done this with blanks in the master/splitter so I've done single fronts (either with master) and they've been fine, but not both together - even after bleeding.

All components (rubber hoses etc are brand new)!

I've not done this on my own as you're right it's not easier, especially if you need to pump/nipple loosen/tighten at the same time.

I may try the clamps in the future to see if it works as it's something I haven't tried yet. I'm going to focus on just the fronts at the moment as I know this doesn't work (with the rear feed blanked at the splitter).

If you think of anything else I'd be grateful.

You say that you have new brake shoes and no drums skimmed. Are they new?
If not how do you know ? If someone in the past has had the drums skimmed and you have bought new shoes then the drums will be bigger than the shoes. If you are unsure of this it means you have to take all the drums off and check the shoes sit properly in the drums. If you think about it if the drums are to big because they have been skimmed then the shoes will only contact at one point thus the brake shoes will flex giving you a soft pedal and s**t brakes.

Clamp all the hoses and try your pedal. if solid then the problem is in one of the brakes. take a clamp off one and try pedal you may find it is the rear like mine was.
Go for it what you got to lose. "WELL NOT YA BRAKES"

Dont give up....

Miniman
Skipton Yorkshire

Don`t know how this works but if you pump the pedal until it gets as good a possible, then wedge a piece of wood between the steering wheel and pedal, holding presure on it then leave overnight you should have a good pedal in the morning. It worked on mine!

If you wedge the pedal it would only tell you if your master Cylinder is leaking as it locks the Cylinder into a on only position.


Where are you in the world for us to come help you are you miles away from Skipton North Yorkshire?

Just Put A Post On Nearly All The Forums. "nearly All" May Be Get Some Help.

Hope They Don't Mind. May Be Get Banned For It But No Help At The Moment. Dont Forget To Kick Up A Stink If I Do Get Banned.....

Fingers Crossed.

May Be Get Your Brakes Sorted Now.....

They Watching Me......

Help....

May Be I Should Shut Up Now...........................

Mini

Man

Loony Larry's trick also worked for me........ on the clutch. Yes, the valve is in the on position, but it's open. If allowed/kept open for several hours, what remaining air that might be in the line, will escape.

I agree with the above comments, check the brake parts, see that the parts, all match and try again.

Cheers,
Todd.

Miniman said:

Just Put A Post On Nearly All The Forums. "nearly All" May Be Get Some Help.

Hope They Don't Mind. May Be Get Banned For It But No Help At The Moment. Dont Forget To Kick Up A Stink If I Do Get Banned.....

Fingers Crossed.

May Be Get Your Brakes Sorted Now.....

They Watching Me......

Help....

May Be I Should Shut Up Now...........................

Mini

Man

Click to expand...

Now what makes you think you would get banned for repeating the same thread in 6 different sections?????
Have you known anyone get banned from here??? Yet???

I see your point in repeating the Thread, but i think most people using the forum will use the "New Posts" button at the top of the screen, thus seeing all post made since the last visit (sorry if i'm stating the obvious).
I saw it but considering i know sod all about The question i felt rather useless and decided not to confuse matters.
Go on then i'll stop waffling, Hope you get the problem sorted, but on a friendly note please try not to repeat posts as it fills the message boards up and makes them look messy. If you do have anything that you need to make "stand out" let one of the mods know and we can make the post sticky to try to attract more attention to it

if your still having problems try what yer maun says and leave it over night. but leave it with one end up in the air as high as you can get it. then do the samle with the other end. i had to do this some years ago with a series 3 with a pressure bleeder, i should add. it was the only way to get all the air out.
try it wot ya gotta lose? a bacon sannie

I finally managed to get around to looking at the brakes again this weekend.

I checked all of the shoes, they were fine. No leaks so I replaced the hubs and adjusted the brakes so they were tight (no wheel rotation).

Next I bled them all again to check. Still had a softish pedal.

Then I clamped front right, left and the rear hose pipes and had a nice hard brake pedal.

Now I released the front right, bled it and yes! I still had a stiff break pedal. So I re-clamped it and did the front left. Same, stiff pedal. Next I did the rears as a pair and had a decent brake pedal, but not as strong.

Then I re-clamped all and now had a strong pedal.

So, thinking it was all going to work I released the front two clamps, with only the rear and I still had a softish peadle, releasing the rear gave me very soft pedal....... At this point I nearly advertised on ebay the landrover.

Next, thinking this is really annoying I reviewed the situation.....

New slave cylinders,
New master cylinder
New pipe's
Old splitter (but it's just that)
New brake shoes
NO air - I was very sure of that as with all of the combinations I'd done (pressure system, reverse bled etc) and the fact that pumping the brakes made no difference.

I thought I'd better check that the master wasn't leaking (like the old one) so I removed the cover plated on the top of the master / brake pedal housing.

I then realised what we'd done. In fitting the replacement master cyclinder, we'd set it up as it as described in the Haynes manual (& restoration) and workshop manual - 1.5 mm play etc etc. BUT what we'd done is set it to the minimum i.e. the pedal as near the master (still retained by the two bolts).

So I adjusted it, moving it further from the master cyclinder and BINGO - rock hard brakes!!!! So why is this, looking at the mechanism / design there's a gearing effect with the brake pedal location on the threaded plunger (that pushes the master) and the pivot of the break pedal. Simply put on the minimum setting I was not pushing enough liquid via the master to take the slack out of the brakes. Thinking about it, with the clamps on it was rock hard, with one brake it was very hard, with two it was rubbish and four, well gravity would have made the pedal reach the floor (only saved by the spring!).

So for anyone reading this, if you have softish brakes and you sure you've got rid of the air check the setting of the brake pedal on the master cylinder and if you can move the end of the break pedal away from the master (adjust the two bolts and the end stop on the brake pedal housing - don't forget to check inside as too much and the brake pedal will hit the aluminim panel hole when fully up) you'll get more fluid per angle change of the pedal (gearing effect) and thus you'll take out the slack in the system (brake shoes etc). Which is one of the reasons you need to keep adjusting the brake shoes adjusters.

It doesn't say this anywhere I've read, but this was my problem with the brakes. Obviously this is very critical (master / pedal setting) and of course with all of the helpful comments, quite a bit of money spent and trying my brother in laws brakes I've managed to crack it - well that and lots of my mum's tea.....

MANY THANKS!!!!

Now onto the next job