On or around Sun, 01 Feb 2004 23:09:15 -0800, Barry S. <nntp@spamsack.org>
enlightened us thusly:

>Does the Mini have recovery hooks? Even on my little Acura, with its
>"hold down" hooks. I'd be very cautious about using them for pulling
>the car out.
>

they're mostly fine for pulling the car on a hard surface, free of
obstructions.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"The breezy call of incense-breathing Morn, The swallow twittering
from the strawbuilt shed, The cock's shrill clarion, or the echoing
horn, No more shall rouse them from their lowly bed."
Thomas Gray, Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard.
 
On Monday, in article
<lqur105l3jq31e5vg1dpgcp6mv723shvtu@4ax.com>
austin@ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk "Austin Shackles" wrote:

> On or around Sun, 01 Feb 2004 23:09:15 -0800, Barry S. <nntp@spamsack.org>
> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >Does the Mini have recovery hooks? Even on my little Acura, with its
> >"hold down" hooks. I'd be very cautious about using them for pulling
> >the car out.
> >
>
> they're mostly fine for pulling the car on a hard surface, free of
> obstructions.

If they weren't, they'd be pretty useless for hold-downs.

I suspect that anything more than a hand-winch would be excessive.

But that's why they make those bow-shackles that fit a tow-ball.

--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."
 
"David G. Bell" wrote:
>
> On Monday, in article
> <lqur105l3jq31e5vg1dpgcp6mv723shvtu@4ax.com>
> austin@ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk "Austin Shackles" wrote:
>
> > On or around Sun, 01 Feb 2004 23:09:15 -0800, Barry S. <nntp@spamsack.org>
> > enlightened us thusly:
> >
> > >Does the Mini have recovery hooks? Even on my little Acura, with its
> > >"hold down" hooks. I'd be very cautious about using them for pulling
> > >the car out.
> > >
> >
> > they're mostly fine for pulling the car on a hard surface, free of
> > obstructions.
>
> If they weren't, they'd be pretty useless for hold-downs.
>
> I suspect that anything more than a hand-winch would be excessive.
>
> But that's why they make those bow-shackles that fit a tow-ball.

Those bow shackles that fit a tow ball are setups for a Darwin award.

You don't ever want to be around when some fool uses a tow ball for a
recovery point!

The balls shear off and turn into cannon balls.

They seriously go ballistic.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
 
On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 09:33:56 -0500, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

>"David G. Bell" wrote:

>> But that's why they make those bow-shackles that fit a tow-ball.
>
>Those bow shackles that fit a tow ball are setups for a Darwin award.
>
>You don't ever want to be around when some fool uses a tow ball for a
>recovery point!
>
>The balls shear off and turn into cannon balls.
>
>They seriously go ballistic.

Well, that's one opinion on the topic. I doubt it's a popular one on
the "uk" side of the pond, though.

 
On Monday, in article <401E5FD4.80D35892@sympatico.ca>
romainm@sympatico.ca "Mike Romain" wrote:

> "David G. Bell" wrote:
> >
> > On Monday, in article
> > <lqur105l3jq31e5vg1dpgcp6mv723shvtu@4ax.com>
> > austin@ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk "Austin Shackles" wrote:
> >
> > > On or around Sun, 01 Feb 2004 23:09:15 -0800, Barry S. <nntp@spamsack.org>
> > > enlightened us thusly:
> > >
> > > >Does the Mini have recovery hooks? Even on my little Acura, with its
> > > >"hold down" hooks. I'd be very cautious about using them for pulling
> > > >the car out.
> > > >
> > >
> > > they're mostly fine for pulling the car on a hard surface, free of
> > > obstructions.
> >
> > If they weren't, they'd be pretty useless for hold-downs.
> >
> > I suspect that anything more than a hand-winch would be excessive.
> >
> > But that's why they make those bow-shackles that fit a tow-ball.
>
> Those bow shackles that fit a tow ball are setups for a Darwin award.
>
> You don't ever want to be around when some fool uses a tow ball for a
> recovery point!
>
> The balls shear off and turn into cannon balls.
>
> They seriously go ballistic.

Look, we've seen people pulling the back end off a vehicle.

I don't want to be around when some idiot with a winch pulls _anything_
too hard.

Ask yourself which end of the tow rope you ought to be worrying about.

--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."
 
In article <401EA417.F565B0E3@sympatico.ca>, Mike Romain
<romainm@sympatico.ca> writes
>So when a snatch strap snaps a tow ball off over on that side of the
>ocean what happens to it?
>
>Do you have some kind of Druid magic or something that is going to make
>that round steel shot drop to the ground rather than sending it
>ballistic like it does over on this side of the ocean?
>
>No, not an opinion, I have seen it happen more than once.

So why on earth would anyone want to harden a towball or the supporting
lug so as to make it brittle?

Likewise with anything metal used in this way, surely you want visible
distortion, not traumatic failure. It's like carabiners used for
caving/climbing - they do bend and distort but that's infinitely
preferable to snapping with shock loading. And, given the huge potential
to cause serious injury (heck, I have Kevlar kite lines that could
decapitate!), why is USA equipment apparently used way beyond its design
limits?

The idea that you've seen this happen "several times" is the scariest
thing of all.

Regards,

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, UK INDEPENDENCE PARTY, BRISTOL www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/
 
SpamTrapSeeSig wrote:
>
> In article <401EA417.F565B0E3@sympatico.ca>, Mike Romain
> <romainm@sympatico.ca> writes
> >So when a snatch strap snaps a tow ball off over on that side of the
> >ocean what happens to it?
> >
> >Do you have some kind of Druid magic or something that is going to make
> >that round steel shot drop to the ground rather than sending it
> >ballistic like it does over on this side of the ocean?
> >
> >No, not an opinion, I have seen it happen more than once.
>
> So why on earth would anyone want to harden a towball or the supporting
> lug so as to make it brittle?
>
> Likewise with anything metal used in this way, surely you want visible
> distortion, not traumatic failure. It's like carabiners used for
> caving/climbing - they do bend and distort but that's infinitely
> preferable to snapping with shock loading. And, given the huge potential
> to cause serious injury (heck, I have Kevlar kite lines that could
> decapitate!), why is USA equipment apparently used way beyond its design
> limits?
>
> The idea that you've seen this happen "several times" is the scariest
> thing of all.
>

There are a lot of fools out there that think like QrizB and David and
figure it is safe to use a tow ball as a pull point.

It is not safe at all!

They seem to be from your side of the ocean too.......
;-)

That is why I said something in this thread.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
 
QrizB wrote:
>
> On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 09:33:56 -0500, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >"David G. Bell" wrote:
>
> >> But that's why they make those bow-shackles that fit a tow-ball.
> >
> >Those bow shackles that fit a tow ball are setups for a Darwin award.
> >
> >You don't ever want to be around when some fool uses a tow ball for a
> >recovery point!
> >
> >The balls shear off and turn into cannon balls.
> >
> >They seriously go ballistic.
>
> Well, that's one opinion on the topic. I doubt it's a popular one on
> the "uk" side of the pond, though.

Huh?

So when a snatch strap snaps a tow ball off over on that side of the
ocean what happens to it?

Do you have some kind of Druid magic or something that is going to make
that round steel shot drop to the ground rather than sending it
ballistic like it does over on this side of the ocean?

No, not an opinion, I have seen it happen more than once.

Same deal with metal hooks on the end of snatch straps. Those are
banned on any organized off road event for this very reason.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
 
On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:25:11 -0500, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

>So when a snatch strap snaps a tow ball off over on that side of the
>ocean what happens to it?
>
>Do you have some kind of Druid magic or something that is going to make
>that round steel shot drop to the ground rather than sending it
>ballistic like it does over on this side of the ocean?

Apparently, we chose to involve metallurgists in designing towballs.
European 50mm towballs are rated for a 3.5-tonne load.

http://premiertools.co.uk/item8527.htm if you don't believe me.

 
QrizB wrote:
>
> On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:25:11 -0500, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >So when a snatch strap snaps a tow ball off over on that side of the
> >ocean what happens to it?
> >
> >Do you have some kind of Druid magic or something that is going to make
> >that round steel shot drop to the ground rather than sending it
> >ballistic like it does over on this side of the ocean?
>
> Apparently, we chose to involve metallurgists in designing towballs.
> European 50mm towballs are rated for a 3.5-tonne load.
>
> http://premiertools.co.uk/item8527.htm if you don't believe me.

Haven't been off road much eh?

Being able to pull 3500 kg (the link states that) that is on wheels has
absolutely nothing to do with an impacting shear load.

Crap, my winch is rated to pull 19,000 lb (with block) which is about
8636 kg and I have had it stalled more than once.

That means I have 'full' load on it and the stuck vehicle is glued into
the mud big time.

Where is you puny 3500 kg ball going to be in this situation? Gone like
a shot, literally.

Note, that is from a standing pull, 'not' a snatch pull where my vehicle
is moving before the strap comes up tight. This 'snatch' pull did pop
the sucker out when the winch stalled but it uses a stretch strap.

This stretch strap can put an amazing amount of force on a pull which is
why you don't want metal ends or something tiny like a tow ball
anchoring it.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
 
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 15:49:15 GMT, "Exit" <exit@nomore.com> wrote:

>http://s93358270.onlinehome.us/tonycar.wmv

Had to google around to find it, as that link's 404. But does anybody
else smell a "funniest home video" setup here? Like somebody's Geo
Storm was depreciated down to just about $0, so they decided to have
some fun with it? There are just too many things wrong there for me
to take it at face value.

bw
 
In article <401ea52e.3668037@news.easynews.com>, qrizb@dev.null says...
> On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:25:11 -0500, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >So when a snatch strap snaps a tow ball off over on that side of the
> >ocean what happens to it?
> >
> >Do you have some kind of Druid magic or something that is going to make
> >that round steel shot drop to the ground rather than sending it
> >ballistic like it does over on this side of the ocean?
>
> Apparently, we chose to involve metallurgists in designing towballs.
> European 50mm towballs are rated for a 3.5-tonne load.
>
> http://premiertools.co.uk/item8527.htm if you don't believe me.
>
>

And you think the two bolts holding that are rated for 3.5 tonnes?
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.
 
In article <BDKON12msqHAFwiK@muircom.demon.co.uk>, no-
one@nospam.demon.co.uk says...
> In article <401EA417.F565B0E3@sympatico.ca>, Mike Romain
> <romainm@sympatico.ca> writes
> >So when a snatch strap snaps a tow ball off over on that side of the
> >ocean what happens to it?
> >
> >Do you have some kind of Druid magic or something that is going to make
> >that round steel shot drop to the ground rather than sending it
> >ballistic like it does over on this side of the ocean?
> >
> >No, not an opinion, I have seen it happen more than once.
>
> So why on earth would anyone want to harden a towball or the supporting
> lug so as to make it brittle?
>
> Likewise with anything metal used in this way, surely you want visible
> distortion, not traumatic failure. It's like carabiners used for
> caving/climbing - they do bend and distort but that's infinitely
> preferable to snapping with shock loading. And, given the huge potential
> to cause serious injury (heck, I have Kevlar kite lines that could
> decapitate!), why is USA equipment apparently used way beyond its design
> limits?
>
> The idea that you've seen this happen "several times" is the scariest
> thing of all.
>
> Regards,
>
> Simonm.
>
>

Tow balls are subjected to impact forces from being backed into trailer
tongues, old ladies and brick walls. You don't want them to bend and
distort every time that happens. Also, a tow ball and trailer are
basically a ball joint, if I wanted a fast wearing ball inside a ball
joint I'd just buy a F-150 front end.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.
 
On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:06:39 -0400, Chris Phillipo
<Xcphillipo@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:

>In article <401ea52e.3668037@news.easynews.com>, qrizb@dev.null says...
>> On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:25:11 -0500, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >So when a snatch strap snaps a tow ball off over on that side of the
>> >ocean what happens to it?
>> >
>> >Do you have some kind of Druid magic or something that is going to make
>> >that round steel shot drop to the ground rather than sending it
>> >ballistic like it does over on this side of the ocean?
>>
>> Apparently, we chose to involve metallurgists in designing towballs.
>> European 50mm towballs are rated for a 3.5-tonne load.
>>
>> http://premiertools.co.uk/item8527.htm if you don't believe me.
>
>And you think the two bolts holding that are rated for 3.5 tonnes?

Funnily enough no, I don't. They're 16 mm 8.8 high-tensile steel,
which by my reckoning gives each bolt a yield strength of roughly 13
tonnes. Far more than the 3.5 tonnes rating of the tow ball.

 
Chris Phillipo wrote:
>
> In article <401ea52e.3668037@news.easynews.com>, qrizb@dev.null says...
> > On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:25:11 -0500, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >So when a snatch strap snaps a tow ball off over on that side of the
> > >ocean what happens to it?
> > >
> > >Do you have some kind of Druid magic or something that is going to make
> > >that round steel shot drop to the ground rather than sending it
> > >ballistic like it does over on this side of the ocean?
> >
> > Apparently, we chose to involve metallurgists in designing towballs.
> > European 50mm towballs are rated for a 3.5-tonne load.
> >
> > http://premiertools.co.uk/item8527.htm if you don't believe me.
> >
> >
>
> And you think the two bolts holding that are rated for 3.5 tonnes?
> --
> ____________________

No matter the bolts, my Warn winch can snap that ball off with a single
pull, let alone the one block pulley normally used.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
 
QrizB wrote:

> On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:06:39 -0400, Chris Phillipo
> <Xcphillipo@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>In article <401ea52e.3668037@news.easynews.com>, qrizb@dev.null says...
>>> On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:25:11 -0500, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >So when a snatch strap snaps a tow ball off over on that side of the
>>> >ocean what happens to it?
>>> >
>>> >Do you have some kind of Druid magic or something that is going to make
>>> >that round steel shot drop to the ground rather than sending it
>>> >ballistic like it does over on this side of the ocean?
>>>
>>> Apparently, we chose to involve metallurgists in designing towballs.
>>> European 50mm towballs are rated for a 3.5-tonne load.
>>>
>>> http://premiertools.co.uk/item8527.htm if you don't believe me.
>>
>>And you think the two bolts holding that are rated for 3.5 tonnes?
>
> Funnily enough no, I don't. They're 16 mm 8.8 high-tensile steel,
> which by my reckoning gives each bolt a yield strength of roughly 13
> tonnes. Far more than the 3.5 tonnes rating of the tow ball.

This gets a bit more interesting. As far as I can tell the 3.5tonne rating
is for normal "gold" towballs. There is an additional requirement for large
4x4 vehicles to use heavy duty "black" towballs which seem to be about
twice the rating of the regular ones, so figure on around a 7tonne rating
on them.

I'm trying to find the actual numbers, but I'm only finding the maximum
downforce and static shock ratings which don't tie into the 3.5t rating
very well.

P.
 
In article <401eccf2.1076388@news.easynews.com>, qrizb@dev.null says...
> On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:06:39 -0400, Chris Phillipo
> <Xcphillipo@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >In article <401ea52e.3668037@news.easynews.com>, qrizb@dev.null says...
> >> On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:25:11 -0500, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >So when a snatch strap snaps a tow ball off over on that side of the
> >> >ocean what happens to it?
> >> >
> >> >Do you have some kind of Druid magic or something that is going to make
> >> >that round steel shot drop to the ground rather than sending it
> >> >ballistic like it does over on this side of the ocean?
> >>
> >> Apparently, we chose to involve metallurgists in designing towballs.
> >> European 50mm towballs are rated for a 3.5-tonne load.
> >>
> >> http://premiertools.co.uk/item8527.htm if you don't believe me.
> >
> >And you think the two bolts holding that are rated for 3.5 tonnes?
>
> Funnily enough no, I don't. They're 16 mm 8.8 high-tensile steel,
> which by my reckoning gives each bolt a yield strength of roughly 13
> tonnes. Far more than the 3.5 tonnes rating of the tow ball.
>
>

Bolted to a chrome plated piece of sheet metal.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.
 
On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 19:32:21 -0400, Chris Phillipo
<Xcphillipo@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:

>In article <401eccf2.1076388@news.easynews.com>, qrizb@dev.null says...
>> On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:06:39 -0400, Chris Phillipo
>> <Xcphillipo@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:

>> >And you think the two bolts holding that are rated for 3.5 tonnes?
>>
>> Funnily enough no, I don't. They're 16 mm 8.8 high-tensile steel,
>> which by my reckoning gives each bolt a yield strength of roughly 13
>> tonnes. Far more than the 3.5 tonnes rating of the tow ball.
>
>Bolted to a chrome plated piece of sheet metal.

Now you're taking the ****.

 
On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:25:11 -0500, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

>QrizB wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 09:33:56 -0500, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >"David G. Bell" wrote:
>>
>> >> But that's why they make those bow-shackles that fit a tow-ball.
>> >
>> >Those bow shackles that fit a tow ball are setups for a Darwin award.
>> >
>> >You don't ever want to be around when some fool uses a tow ball for a
>> >recovery point!
>> >
>> >The balls shear off and turn into cannon balls.
>> >
>> >They seriously go ballistic.
>>
>> Well, that's one opinion on the topic. I doubt it's a popular one on
>> the "uk" side of the pond, though.
>
>Huh?
>
>So when a snatch strap snaps a tow ball off over on that side of the
>ocean what happens to it?
>
>Do you have some kind of Druid magic or something that is going to make
>that round steel shot drop to the ground rather than sending it
>ballistic like it does over on this side of the ocean?

Mebbe their snatch straps are only good for 3000 kg?

bw
 
On or around Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:06:39 -0400, Chris Phillipo
<Xcphillipo@ns.sympatico.ca> enlightened us thusly:

>And you think the two bolts holding that are rated for 3.5 tonnes?

probably, they (should be) 16mm high tensile.

gives you a combined CSA for both of around 400mm²

ISTR that mild steel has a tensile strength of about 16 tons/sq.in, which if
my calculations are right means that 2x16mm mild steel bolts would have a
tensile strength of getting on for 10 tons. High-tensile ones are apt to be
stronger, at least in tension... The NATO hitch on mine is fitted by 4x12mm
high-tensile bolts which have a combined strength slightly higher than the
2x16mm ones.

meanwhile, the neck of the towball is somewhat larger, without measuring it
I don't know what size it is, but I'd hazard a guess that it's at least 20mm
which makes it the same area as the 2 bolts, it might be slightly larger.

I'd have to look up shear loads.

However. the tow ball is rated to tow 3500Kg, and even on-road, the dynamic
forces exceed the static load (e.g. from over-run braking), I'd be amazed if
the tow ball hasn't got at least a factor 2 in its design, probably more.

Obviously, you can break it, you can break anything. But I don't think it's
common, and I don't think it's as puny as you all make out.

ISTR a common size for shackles is 3/4" - that pin is probably not as thick
as the neck of a tow ball.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Something there is that doesn't love a wall."
Robert Frost (1874-1963)
 
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