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nutticheese

New Member
I have recently purchased a 2 and a quarter diesel series 3 off a friend who found it in a field and spend lots of £££ trying to sort it. he had new piston rings, new cam shells, valve stem seals, new injectors, new heater plugs, recon injector pump. the problem is it pours smoke out constantly, think its a fuel problem cos its sort of grey in colour and it smells of fuel. also uses shed loads of juice, about 15 to the gallon?? I think maybe it could be the injector pump. Any way of finding out

pete
 
Keep calm.

It the engine running? YES.

That's good news.

Your diagnosis "think it's a fuel problem" is definitely correct!
The problem is that the fuel in at least one cylinder is not being burned cleanly or at all.

Who set the timing belt? Can you be sure the timing is OK?

Do this.
Find a spanner that is a perfect fit on the injector pipe nuts.
With the engine ticking over, slacken the No.4 injector pipe nut till fuel spurts. This may or may not have an effect on the tickover. It should have a BIG effect, but the engine should still run. Tighten it back up - if the engine went wobbly when you loosened it, it should run clean now.
Do this on all the 4 injectors. If injection is taking place the effect of slacking each pipe should be the same - running on 3 cylinders. If slacking one has no effect, or a lot less effect than another one, we have a problem.

If this test suggests that they all do the same more or less, then I think your pump timing is WAY out, and is RETARDED. You can sort this as a DIY exercise and the way to proceed is somewhere in the forum, but I don't know how to find it.

CharlesY
 
Loosening the injector pipes did as you thought, the engine struggled to tick over until it was tightened up again. this was the same for all four pipes. I have tried turning the injector pump everso slightly, this has had the effect of reducing the smoke only a little but also loosing a bit of power. unfortunately i'm lost as to what postion it should be

pete
 
with the pump removed, you should see what haynes manual calls a master spline (the big one) on the pump drive shaft comiung from engine on the pump mating face, when the flywheel is timed either 16 deg for early or 15deg for later engines the master spline should be at 20 degrees below horizontal (about 4 o clock position)
the 20 deg line should be scribed with protractor for accuracy,
the datum /zero degree line will run in line from front hole through centre line of shaft,
im a new owner and would recommend the workshop manual or haynes
hope thishelps
 
Best not to take the pump off yet perhaps.

You can afford to advance the timing quite a lot.
A good all round setting is to advance it till if CLATTERS when you whip the throttle open, then back it off JUST enough to very nearly stop the clatter.

If this doesn't stop the smoke then it may be the injectors need taken out and re-set, which is easy if you know someone with a Hartridge tester or similar.

The fact that the engine starts and runs is a good sign, and I would assume meantime that the pump splines and chain timing are OK. Do the timing till it diesel-clatters and back off a tiny bit.

CharlesY
 
have moved the injector pump into every position possible with no effect on the amount of smoke, so I guess its the injectors. i assume that they're just squirting too much juice. the injectors are new but that doesn't mean to say they were set up properly. not sure what a hartridge tester is so think i'm gonna take it to the garage

many thanks for your help

pete
 
hi pete
before you take it to garage, i bought 1 new injector to replace stripped threads on top and that caused me problems, you can test them by removing then and connecting to pump ,loosen others so as not to start engine and turn over, the dodgy new one on mine squirted a solid jet , i swapped the old nozzle off other and this gave a nice mist put back on and worked fine, problem is you have done the test charles suggested and it didnt show a dodgy one, i raisedthe tickover for the test to keep engine running, mine stalled soon as first looosened
 
Back to basics boys! This is the reported problem:
the problem is it pours smoke out constantly, think its a fuel problem cos its sort of grey in colour and it smells of fuel. also uses shed loads of juice, about 15 to the gallon??

OK ..... so grey smoke stinking of fuel huh?

Back to seriously off timed injection pump.

It could be water getting into a cylinder, but usually you would notice a water-loss and pressurising of the cooling system.

If the injectors are new, you can be pretty sure they ARE set to the correct pressures, so leave them alone.

You see where we're heading here?

Fuel injection pump ..... and that usually means timing.

If it was excess fuel there would be clouds of black smoke, but it's grey smoke you say ....

CharlesY
 
Mine did the same, new injectors, then it was all down to timing, clouds of grey smoke. Took all weekend adjusting the injector pump, moving it like half a mm at a time until now, there's only a little bit of smoke on start up. It takes ages of trail & error, just move it a fraction at a time.
 
OK, i'll give it the weekend. after I have moved it the half mm how long do i need to run it for? should it have instant results or do i need to leave it ticking over for ten mins or so. like i said, i've already moved it into several positions but i didnt give it long before moving it again

many thanks for your help guys

pete
 
nutticheese said:
OK, i'll give it the weekend. after I have moved it the half mm how long do i need to run it for? should it have instant results or do i need to leave it ticking over for ten mins or so. like i said, i've already moved it into several positions but i didnt give it long before moving it again

many thanks for your help guys

pete
Click to expand...

INSTANT results.
Be BOLD.
Work out which way is ADVANCING the pump. Looking down on the pump from on top, the innards of the pump turn CLOCKWISE. So ..... if you want to advance the timing (you do) then you turn the body of the pump ANTI-CLOCKWISE. Be BOLD. Turn it a cople of mm on the clamp first time, but remember first to slacken all the injector pipes at the pump ends. This is MOST IMPORTANT. Once the job is all done, it is VITAL to slacken BOTH ends of each injector pipe, so that each pipe sits unstrained. If you don't do this you risk taking the ends off the pipes. Tip ... When you settle pipes, do them one at a time and start the engine between pipes. The engine should fire up on three cylinders and purge the one you slacked very quickly. As soon as it runs cleanly, stop it and do the next pipe. Just ondo both ends a bit, then do them up snug. Don't over-tighten them.

It isn't a huge job, and no damage will result unless you drive a big distance with it clattering like crazy. Shift it a full 2mm each move. You'll eventually get to the point when it "diesel clatters" really sharply when you dab the throttle lever open. Then back off (retard) the pump by one step of 2mm and take it for a test drive. You want it to be JUST short of clattering on full throttle full load.

Job done!

£200 saved.

CharlesY
 
ok me again. I spent last sunday moving the injector pump into every position imaginable but to no avail. just got off the phone to a guy form buckley brothers who said straight away its the timing chain. they stretch over time thus causing it to be out of time. twisting the injector pump can help to a certain extent but it wont cure it. the chain is always going to get more stretched. the fact that its a bugger to start and it uses shed loads of juice lent weight to his arguement.

Any thoughts chaps?

pete
 
That is perfectly possible, and I would bow to this guy's superior knowledge of this specific engine IF HE ACTUALLY KNOWS that this happens.

Timing chains seldom stretch significantly, and I shall be very surprised if yur chainm has stretched so much that you doing the timing can't "take up" the wear.

The chain stretching will cause the pump and the valve timing to be RETARDED a little.

What was this guy suggesting, and what guarantee of success was he giving?

FIRST step now is set everything else up good.
You have done the pump.
Now find someone who can check and set the INJECTORS to "pop" at the "used" pressure of about 125 BAR (book figure is 123 BAR). If even ONE injector is even 20 bar out, a 2.25 diesel will lose a heap of oooomph.

I can set them if you want to post them up with return postage paid.

CharlesY
 
he is suggesting a new timing chain. The other thing that could happen is that it wasn't timed up properly in the first place. remember my friend had loads of work done to the engine which would have meant the removal of the head. the more i think about it the more it makes sense. the injection pump needs advancing as far as possible just for it to start and run OK. its as if it needs advancing some more. the guy said he's heard of people taking the pump off and making the slots wider so it can be advanced even further. he was adamant that a new chain or retiming of the existing chain is in order

pete
 
them engins have a timing chain damper that can snap at the bolt holes causing yer chain to go reet slack. we used to put rubber groments in the new one to absorb the shock loads.

but if yer int hearing rattly noises i wouldn't have thought it wur that
 
Mistimed is possible, bust tensioner as Slob suggests is possible, but a timing chain stretched that far is streching the imagination too far for me.

There is a procedure for setting and checking pump timing.

1. take off the rocker cover - take off the injection pump but hold on to the drive shaft.
2. rotate engine the right way until the valves of No. 1 cylinder are closed and the piston is on the way up on a compression stroke.
3. peering though the timing hole on the flywhel cover turn the engine FORWARDS ONLY until the pointer is EXACTLY lined up with the 13° timing mark on the flywheel.

4. The MASTER SPLINE of the skew gear MUST be showing about 20° right and down from straight in line with the engine, like 4 o'clock as it were, not 3 or 5 o'clock. If this is not the case your skew gear must be lifted out after you undo the retaining screw fitted below it in the block.

Note than the LONGER splines of the wee drive shaft fit DOWN into the skew gear.

I think it will probably be worth the effort to check this out before doing much else.
You really must know that this is set up correctly.

I have a wonderful diesel data book here from which I took this gen.

CharlesY
 
hi there folks, just returned from the landy man kens garage, he's put a new timing chain on with mixed results. when i went to pick it up my heart sank - it was pouring out smoke as ever. he said it had been a bitch as there were no timing marks on the flywheel. anyway end result is the smoke tends to build up the longer it is sat ticking over. on the drive home it cleared itself up loads and there is a noticable improvement with the power, acceleration and top speed. he suggests next to cut the slots out on the injector pump. this will enable me to advance it further and maybe cure it. i guess i have nothing to lose as this is something i can do myself i'll keep you all informed

pete
 
nutticheese said:
hi there folks, just returned from the landy man kens garage, he's put a new timing chain on with mixed results. when i went to pick it up my heart sank - it was pouring out smoke as ever. he said it had been a bitch as there were no timing marks on the flywheel. anyway end result is the smoke tends to build up the longer it is sat ticking over. on the drive home it cleared itself up loads and there is a noticable improvement with the power, acceleration and top speed. he suggests next to cut the slots out on the injector pump. this will enable me to advance it further and maybe cure it. i guess i have nothing to lose as this is something i can do myself i'll keep you all informed

pete
Click to expand...

DO NOT SLOT THE INJECTION PUMP.

If it needs this then there must be a fault in the timing setup.

Your man told you there were no timing marks.

WRONG!

It's just he was too blind to see them.

I think it is a pity you went down that route because it cost you money and hasn't changed things much.

CharlesY
 
the other thing he is suggesting is that the block looks like a 2.5 off a 90 and the head a 2 1/4 off series 3. Is this possible? if this is the case then surely it will never run properly whatever i do to it. I'm quite the novice on these matters. is there any way of identifiying if the block is a 2.5? it might explain the lack of timing marks.......

they are different colours, the block is like red oxide colour and the head is green

also the timing chain has improved performance so don't think it was money completely wasted

pete
 
reeet the 2.5 na doozil uses the same block as the 2.25 petrol and the 2.5 petrol (5 bearing crank)

and as fur timing marks - i recently bought a new crank pulley from Paddocks and it dint have timing marks on it - so it IS possible - but i think on the doozil yu fit a bolt thro the bell housing and it fits into a notch into the flywheel.
 
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