O Bife · Nov 27, 2009

Hi there,

I've been trying to find out if any of the Goodridge brake lines (the ones with the braided stainless steel wraps) will work on my P38. It's a P38 2.5 DSE 1999 with ABS.

I been checking the Goodridge site and I found the following:

All Models 1995 - 2001 B KCB-317-688-6 @ £93.42

Now, by that I assume, these would do, but by what I have seen on other sites, they are no good if you have ABS.

Can anybody help me out please?

Cheers

,

Phil

G-man · Nov 27, 2009

why would they be no good if you have abs? surely all p38's have abs..... i can see no reason why you couldn't fit them to a vehicle with abs they don't affect braking in any way other than to eliminate the flex you get from standard rubber hoses giving you a better pedal 'feel' over-braided brake lines are better than rubber lines in all ways apart from price thats why manufacturers don't fit them

kernowdragon · Nov 27, 2009

They're also available on ebay for around £20 less. Seeing as all models had ABS they surely wouldn't be listed as suitable for P38's if there was going to be a problem, and as far as I'm aware there's not specific reason not to use braided lines on ABS systems.

wammers · Nov 27, 2009

O Bife said:
Hi there,

I've been trying to find out if any of the Goodridge brake lines (the ones with the braided stainless steel wraps) will work on my P38. It's a P38 2.5 DSE 1999 with ABS.

I been checking the Goodridge site and I found the following:

All Models 1995 - 2001 B KCB-317-688-6 @ £93.42

Now, by that I assume, these would do, but by what I have seen on other sites, they are no good if you have ABS.

Can anybody help me out please?

Cheers ,

Phil

Someone would have to explain to me why they would be no good with ABS, they just carry brake fluid like a rubber one. I cannot see what difference they would make, a brake pipe is a brake pipe. Also each to their own, but why pay £93.00 for something that does no more than the standard flexi which maybe costs half the price, but is just shiny cover on a standard pipe.

G-man · Nov 27, 2009

wammers said:
Someone would have to explain to me why they would be no good with ABS, they just carry brake fluid like a rubber one. I cannot see what difference they would make, a brake pipe is a brake pipe. Also each to their own, but why pay £93.00 for something that does no more than the standard flexi which maybe costs half the price, but is just shiny cover on a standard pipe.

they are not just a shiny cover on a standard hose, they are more flexable than a standard hose, they don't perish like rubber does so in theory will outlast the vehicle they are fitted to, they are less susceptible to wear than standard rubber hoses and they give a firmer feel to the pedal as rubber ones deform and expand under pressure

kernowdragon · Nov 27, 2009

wammers said:
Someone would have to explain to me why they would be no good with ABS, they just carry brake fluid like a rubber one. I cannot see what difference they would make, a brake pipe is a brake pipe. Also each to their own, but why pay £93.00 for something that does no more than the standard flexi which maybe costs half the price, but is just shiny cover on a standard pipe.

There's a bit more to it than just bling, they do make a big difference to pedal feel. The braid is much better at controling the expansion of the pipe under pressure, giving a much firmer and more responsive pedal.

G-man · Nov 27, 2009

kernowdragon said:
There's a bit more to it than just bling, they do make a big difference to pedal feel. The braid is much better at controling the expansion of the pipe under pressure, giving a much firmer and more responsive pedal.

thats what i said!

kernowdragon · Nov 27, 2009

G-man said:
thats what i said!

Ok so you can type faster than me and got there first!

G-man · Nov 27, 2009

such is life, i don't know how i can out type anyone, i am a ham fisted fool with fingers like sausages.......... yep thats right i have hands made of pig bits........ there is one good thing about having chunky hands....... my ex loved them

wammers · Nov 27, 2009

G-man said:
they are not just a shiny cover on a standard hose, they are more flexable than a standard hose, they don't perish like rubber does so in theory will outlast the vehicle they are fitted to, they are less susceptible to wear than standard rubber hoses and they give a firmer feel to the pedal as rubber ones deform and expand under pressure

Quite possibly, i do not dispute that. But this is a P38 we are talking about not a F1 car, they are not required and serve no useful purpose other than looking better. Bit like anodised K&N filters and multi coloured vacuum hoses. Also from an MOT point of view, you cannot see if they are perishing beneath the braid the first indication of wear you get is no brakes.

O Bife · Nov 29, 2009

wammers said:
...they are not required and serve no useful purpose other than looking better...

Not too sure I agree with you there. I've had nothing but grief with the conventional hoses. Had the whole system checked over a few times and there is nothing wrong, just the darn problem with the actual hoses which keep on "bulging" and cause brief spongy brakes especially whenever I have to brake a tad harder than norm.

I have been told that these braided hoses put a stop to this which makes sense. But saying that, I have read on some sites which sell them that they are only for "non ABS", which, as already mentioned, doesn't really make any sense at all.

wammers · Nov 29, 2009

O Bife said:
Not too sure I agree with you there. I've had nothing but grief with the conventional hoses. Had the whole system checked over a few times and there is nothing wrong, just the darn problem with the actual hoses which keep on "bulging" and cause brief spongy brakes especially whenever I have to brake a tad harder than norm.

I have been told that these braided hoses put a stop to this which makes sense. But saying that, I have read on some sites which sell them that they are only for "non ABS", which, as already mentioned, doesn't really make any sense at all.

According to the Goodridge bumf they are made from PTFE, the braid is not there to hold them together but as an heat sink and to stop abrasion. Also they state that they eliminate pedal rattle on ABS systems. They also improve braking by 10 to 25% which i personally find an astonishing claim. Given that the expansion of a normal brake hose in good condition under pressure will be almost unmeasurable excepting with a micrometer. The inner diameter may be increased slightly under pressure but the outer dia does not change to any measurable degree. The difference in volume of fluid between the two would be miniscule, i cannot see where they get their claims from, or that it could be felt at the pedal. The difference between the the Goodridge pipe and a standard pipe in good condition would be un-noticable by the average driver. I would suggest that if you have spongy brakes because of brake pipes expanding under pressure they have been unservicable for some considerable time and are almost at the point of failing. The only time a flexible brake line expands in any sort of noticable manner is if the inner core is punctured and fluid has leaked between the inner and the outer covering. This is why many have checking rings fitted with the brakes applied you must be able to slide the check ring along the pipe. If the movement is restricted this means the inner core has failed. If indeed there is no expansion of the Goodridge pipes and a little expansion of the inner core of a rubber pipe then the brake will be applied a micro second sooner on the Goodridge equipped unit, maybe that is required in a racing car but i can see no advantage in a road car that would convince me to part with £93.00 plus to own them, unless i was building a concours vehicle.

O Bife · Nov 29, 2009

wammers said:
I would suggest that if you have spongy brakes because of brake pipes expanding under pressure they have been unservicable for some considerable time and are almost at the point of failing.

Mmmm, I might agree with you there if I hadn't had to put 3 sets of new hoses on her in the past 4 years! All original hoses too. The prior set to the ones I'm using now lasted 3 months before bulges appeared and the ones before them lasted just over a year and as I said, the whole braking has been checked a few times and everything is ok.

This has been the only real problem we've had with our P38. Yeah, we've had to replace things like the EAS, transfer box (bought the P38 with that problem), fuel injector pump, along with a few other knick knacks, but it's just this problem with the hoses that keeps on happening.

gegs88 · Nov 29, 2009

O Bife said:
Mmmm, I might agree with you there if I hadn't had to put 3 sets of new hoses on her in the past 4 years! All original hoses too. The prior set to the ones I'm using now lasted 3 months before bulges appeared and the ones before them lasted just over a year and as I said, the whole braking has been checked a few times and everything is ok.

This has been the only real problem we've had with our P38. Yeah, we've had to replace things like the EAS, transfer box (bought the P38 with that problem), fuel injector pump, along with a few other knick knacks, but it's just this problem with the hoses that keeps on happening.

if it's been that that m8 then braided hoses are just gonna mask a more serious problem. oem hoses should last for years.

wammers · Nov 30, 2009

O Bife said:
Mmmm, I might agree with you there if I hadn't had to put 3 sets of new hoses on her in the past 4 years! All original hoses too. The prior set to the ones I'm using now lasted 3 months before bulges appeared and the ones before them lasted just over a year and as I said, the whole braking has been checked a few times and everything is ok.

This has been the only real problem we've had with our P38. Yeah, we've had to replace things like the EAS, transfer box (bought the P38 with that problem), fuel injector pump, along with a few other knick knacks, but it's just this problem with the hoses that keeps on happening.

Sorry but i do find that hard to believe unless you or your garage, have fitted sub standard hoses. I have seen 10 + year old vehicles with the original hoses fitted and in good condition. I changed the front flexis on a 1992 Volvo 940 a couple of months ago, only very slighty cracking of the outer case near the crimped ends, no bulging at all after 17 years. I have seen bulging hoses, they do fail sometimes as explained in the earlier post, but it is a very rare occurance and never after a few months.The maximum working pressure on a P38 system is 110 bar around 1500 psi the flexis should cope with that with ease. Maybe you have just been unlucky.

G-man · Nov 30, 2009

wammers said:
According to the Goodridge bumf they are made from PTFE, the braid is not there to hold them together but as an heat sink and to stop abrasion. Also they state that they eliminate pedal rattle on ABS systems. They also improve braking by 10 to 25% which i personally find an astonishing claim. Given that the expansion of a normal brake hose in good condition under pressure will be almost unmeasurable excepting with a micrometer. The inner diameter may be increased slightly under pressure but the outer dia does not change to any measurable degree. The difference in volume of fluid between the two would be miniscule, i cannot see where they get their claims from, or that it could be felt at the pedal. The difference between the the Goodridge pipe and a standard pipe in good condition would be un-noticable by the average driver. I would suggest that if you have spongy brakes because of brake pipes expanding under pressure they have been unservicable for some considerable time and are almost at the point of failing. The only time a flexible brake line expands in any sort of noticable manner is if the inner core is punctured and fluid has leaked between the inner and the outer covering. This is why many have checking rings fitted with the brakes applied you must be able to slide the check ring along the pipe. If the movement is restricted this means the inner core has failed. If indeed there is no expansion of the Goodridge pipes and a little expansion of the inner core of a rubber pipe then the brake will be applied a micro second sooner on the Goodridge equipped unit, maybe that is required in a racing car but i can see no advantage in a road car that would convince me to part with £93.00 plus to own them, unless i was building a concours vehicle.

erm a concours vehicle would be marked down for having non standard hoses.....

also have you ever driven a vehicle with braided hoses on? its a big difference i have driven quite a few cars equipped with said hoses ( i have fitted a couple of sets too) for instance when working for a skoda dealership i road tested a 1600 ( super 1600s if memory serves) skoda felicia rally car both before and after it was fitted with braided hoses and it was like driving a different car the pedal was firmer it suffered with less brake fade due to overheated brake fluid, and when on a stage in Belgium the car hit a rock and smashed the rear suspension and still drove back to the service area the brake hose was still intact even though it had been catching on the shredded tyre for the last 1/4 of the stage

wammers · Nov 30, 2009

G-man said:
erm a concours vehicle would be marked down for having non standard hoses.....

also have you ever driven a vehicle with braided hoses on? its a big difference i have driven quite a few cars equipped with said hoses ( i have fitted a couple of sets too) for instance when working for a skoda dealership i road tested a 1600 ( super 1600s if memory serves) skoda felicia rally car both before and after it was fitted with braided hoses and it was like driving a different car the pedal was firmer it suffered with less brake fade due to overheated brake fluid, and when on a stage in Belgium the car hit a rock and smashed the rear suspension and still drove back to the service area the brake hose was still intact even though it had been catching on the shredded tyre for the last 1/4 of the stage

Point taken, maybe concours was the wrong word, tricking up may have been a better discription. Also you speak of a rally car, i did say earlier a racing car, i trust this would encompass rallying. I did say earlier each to their own. If paying over the odds for something you do not really need is your thing by all means do it. I suppose they would come into their own if you had to drive a quarter of your journey with a shredded tyre. Or you drove your P38 like a lunatic on country roads long enough to over cook the brake fluid. Other that that the standard hoses do a pretty
acceptable job for much less money, even if they are not quite as shiny and bling. Also i bet the customer was happy about you driving his rally car on road test in such a way as to enable you to judge brake fade difference between fitments. Would this come into the driving like a lunatic category? I tuned and built rally cars years ago, i can assure you it takes a lot more than a set of braided hoses to cure brake fade. Part of the solution for sure, but far from the all singing a dancing cure you seem to propose. As i said earlier ok in the right place and the right application but to the vast majority of the motoring world an expensive luxury which is not required.

jonny427 · Nov 30, 2009

Hi Phil I have popped my rear brake lines, badly corroded, a company called fortune 4x4 in Essex are replacing them with braided hoses. When I pick it up I will ask where they got them from.

ATB Jon

O Bife · Nov 30, 2009

jonny427 said:
Hi Phil I have popped my rear brake lines, badly corroded, a company called fortune 4x4 in Essex are replacing them with braided hoses. When I pick it up I will ask where they got them from.

ATB Jon

Cheers Jon, that would be helpfull.

All the best,

Phil

G-man · Nov 30, 2009

wammers said:
Point taken, maybe concours was the wrong word, tricking up may have been a better discription. Also you speak of a rally car, i did say earlier a racing car, i trust this would encompass rallying. I did say earlier each to their own. If paying over the odds for something you do not really need is your thing by all means do it. I suppose they would come into their own if you had to drive a quarter of your journey with a shredded tyre. Or you drove your P38 like a lunatic on country roads long enough to over cook the brake fluid. Other that that the standard hoses do a pretty
acceptable job for much less money, even if they are not quite as shiny and bling. Also i bet the customer was happy about you driving his rally car on road test in such a way as to enable you to judge brake fade difference between fitments. Would this come into the driving like a lunatic category? I tuned and built rally cars years ago, i can assure you it takes a lot more than a set of braided hoses to cure brake fade. Part of the solution for sure, but far from the all singing a dancing cure you seem to propose. As i said earlier ok in the right place and the right application but to the vast majority of the motoring world an expensive luxury which is not required.

i wasn't making it out to be a cure all it was one part in the process along with high quality disks race compound pads and high boiling point fluid, and the idea of the road test was to shake down the vehicle and settle in the suspention and make sure the pads and disks were bedded in, and to get race pads to work you need to get them hot you cant do that pootling along at 30 and as the guy had asked me to give it some stick i could hardly say no to him

its not only rally cars i have fitted them to my best mates mk2 daimler 250 has them on and it improved the pedal feel and braking response on that too!

my cousin fitted them to his 3.5 disco and has nothing but praise for them as they don't suffer from damage like his rubber ones did and when i get round to it i am gonna make some for my series and i was thinking about making a clutch hose too........

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