i agreeto an extent with this too... but...

good quality traction control when used in a high end performance car works cos it adjusts power distribution and braking to all 4 wheels independantly - so it does, when properly implimented, give 'more traction' or rather it allows the traction to be used to its full.

The police when they used to bother with car accidents used to calculate the maximum speed of a corner, using the corners radius, shape, camber, etc.

I dnt understand how they can - if you take a LR around a corner at say 40, and just make it round, you would be able to do the same corner in a high performanace sports car at a much higher speed, and still make it round. How can you say 'yes that corner is doable at 50, and nothing more?'

And surely if discs are given the same maintainence of drums, they are just as good, if not better? Probably not on hills mind, but for stopping power and reliability?

In my limited experience i have heard of one drum throwing a shoe and one disc throwing a shoe. Pray enlighten me!

Re: the drum/disc thing.

On all of my cars I've had one caliper seize. No pads thrown or discs break.

I've also had two drums let the friction lining go, and one slave cylinder (as a result of lining absence) pop it's pistons.

If I could design my ideal car, it would have discs with abs on as it's default. It would have traction control. This so that I can be dozey , miss what's just about to happen and mash the pedals.

But, when I'm awake and want to take charge it would have a big button to turn it all off, and it would have hill climb type brake control on each wheel. I'm not a die hard off-roader, so axle diff locks aren't on my wish list. Weedy slipways and ski resorts are my problems.

But back to DaveC. I love the abs on the Alfa. It is just that my blood boils when it won't do what I want it to do. As an example. It has a flappy paddle box, with an ecu controlled hydraulic clutch and gear selector. Couple this with sporty suspension and you have the dream car. Well, no. I lived on a slight hill. The ice cometh. The gearbox wouldn't let me choose third gear, too slow. Ice was bumpy (frozen slush) sport suspension was bouncing the car, and me in my seat, so I couldn't apply gentle throttle. Result was a drift off camber towards the kerb.

So, yes, the technology is brilliant doing what it was designed to, but absolute rubbish when you are outside the design parameters.

ratty said:

It's funny you should say that.......

In my job I cannot afford to have brake failure. I need to know that my brakes are locked on solid and that my vehicle will not budge. For that reason I have a vehicle with DRUMS all round.

I drive the oldest truck on the fleet through choice. It will out perform any of the new trucks on the fleet. It has drum brakes all round and has a straight 6 cylinder N/A engine. It will outrun, out brake, out winch, out manouvre, and out carry any equivelent truck on the fleet. (the fleet is 80 strong). It will also wade deeper, is better off road, breaksdown less and just to add insult to injury will carry it's equivelent vehicles when they breakdown. The new trucks normally breakdown and get towed in about once a month. My trucks (of which there have been 2) have been towed in only once (between them) in 11 years. My first truck had 900,000 on it when I moved out of it, my current one has only around 500,000.

Disc brakes are great for stopping power but are far more likely to throw pads, crack discs and fail to hold on hills than drums.

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Ooh !!! Ratty you dont half write a manly post

treestump said:

Ooh !!! Ratty you dont half write a manly post

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Don't tell me you're coming outta the closet now anorl?

ratty said:

Don't tell me you're coming outta the closet now anorl?

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Is that with a bag over me head or without

treestump said:

Is that with a bag over me head or without

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dunno. I can't see how bad you look with that mask on.

lightning said:

When I bought my Defender I was a bit disappointed that it did not have the ABS/TC fitted....however I went to a local show recently and the car park field was really chewed up. There was about a foot of mud and cars had no chance, even 4wd ones.
I avoided the worst of it but when we came to leave the exit was blocked by a truck that had bogged down. My wife was driving and we had to go right across the worst of the mud...her off road experience totalled a half day Land Rover Experience course that we did.
Anyway she put it into low range and engaged the diff lock, then put it in second gear and off we went. A bit of wheelspin followed but she did really well, the Defender just ploughed through the mud, past the stuck Range Rover Sport, the Audi 4x4 and various other cars that were waiting for the tractor to tow them.
Big respect due to the Defender (and the wife!) she just said "that's how I was told to do it on the LR day".
The Defender must be pretty much unstoppable if the traction control makes it better than ours.

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This is what defenders are for! Why did you buy one?It'lll do this stuff all day long with out mods.