[david451]

there's no timing to set up so not worried about that.. the thing with the tapets pumping up might be there or there abouts.. but a pain to get to the rockers on the v8

I do however have a compressions guage so if no joy today after it's dried out and vented (plugs have been out all night and not gonna get round to it until after lunch at the earliest today) then will compression test...

cheers again guys

there aint one of them cut off things.. the ECU controls the fuel cut off by cutting earth to the injectors.. according to the RAVE.. still no idea what that wire is but perhaps it's a spare on the loom..

Just heat the plugs to dry them out, blow lamp or stick em in the oven, gentle heat with the lamp mind you dont go daft, more chance of it firing on hot plugs aswel. I do that all the time with motors that have been laid up. then give them a little clean with a wire brush or sand paper or sumut.

Just make sure its getting a spark, nice blue cracky one, and fook some wd40 down its throat, and lets illiminate some things.

Cant think off hand with the v8 gasket but, people have fitted gaskets the wrong way blocking off the ports.

I guess we are giving you loads of things but, if the plugs are soakin wet then its getting fuel, so why aint it firing, even if the fuel went in at the wrong time it would splutter, so make sure all the basics are there first.

 

[mjltigger]

the things needed are fuel air spark and compression.. so w know there's fuel (although not how much.. the clue is the smell) we know there's spark at the plugs when removed.. suppose a bad engine earth coudl cause the spark to not be present so that's worth checking.. I can test for compression.. not sure how to test for air but I guess the only place that could cause an air problem is in the plenum.. so if I have to take rockers off I can check that out at the same time.. already tried it with the air box removed and just air straight into the plenum

the gaskets went on the same way the old ones came off.. might be wrong but certainly wont prevent the car starting as it was starting and running perfectly before the gasket blew..

gonna see if I can get some local help cos I am losing my mind with this and don't want to start pulling it apart if I've missed something easy and obvious.. so will update you when I've had a second pair of eyes on it..

 

[david451]

the things needed are fuel air spark and compression.. so w know there's fuel (although not how much.. the clue is the smell) we know there's spark at the plugs when removed.. suppose a bad engine earth coudl cause the spark to not be present so that's worth checking.. I can test for compression.. not sure how to test for air but I guess the only place that could cause an air problem is in the plenum.. so if I have to take rockers off I can check that out at the same time.. already tried it with the air box removed and just air straight into the plenum

the gaskets went on the same way the old ones came off.. might be wrong but certainly wont prevent the car starting as it was starting and running perfectly before the gasket blew..

gonna see if I can get some local help cos I am losing my mind with this and don't want to start pulling it apart if I've missed something easy and obvious.. so will update you when I've had a second pair of eyes on it..

So what happened when you sprayed wd40 down its holes, it should have fired, also is the spark ok, and I assumed you stuck all the spark plugs in the leads and layed them on the engine, nice and blue. With the air pipe off you will feel if its pulling air in just put your hand over it.

And you shouldnt have to pull it apart if the compressions are ok, so do all these things before you spend cash on assistance. Dont panic, check all these basics first, because if you called me out thats where I would go.

 

[mjltigger]

not tried wd40 yet.. concerned that if it is flooded wd40 will only make it worse.. went out an hour or so ago and realised when I took the plugs out and left it to vent I hadn't purged the fuel from the fuel rail so did that then and letting it vent again.. bonnet up and plugs out..

thankfully a certain knowledgeable fella who is also a moderator on this forum has said he will try and come have a look with me... and test the 4 ingredients..

the good news is I was putting off doing plugs.. only bought cheap ones rather than the plat tipped but they should be OK for a short while.. better than the old ones that had overheated anyway until the coffers recover form the head gasket job..

now confused about plug gap cos when I mentioned what I'd set the gap to my old man went.. is that all.....

 

[classic kev]

Tigger,

Don't panick just yet. Lets start with the wire that is loose - what colour is the wire and what sort of connector does it have on it? I am guessing at this point but it is likely to be the temp gauge sender wire or possibly the thermo switch wire for A/C (if fitted).

You say ignition timing not an issue - I presume your engine has coil packs and crank sensor. If injection is pumping in fuel and you say you have sparks then it is probable the answer lies either with the timing of the injection pulse or the ignition timing. Sorry I can't say more than that I'm not familiar with the later injection set up.

 

[mjltigger]

right.. that thing you saqid about thew wire kev rings a bell now.. I will have another look in the morning.. it is a white wire in a black sheath on its own.. comes off the injector loom near the alternator.. is live ignition switched.. anyone knows what it is I would be really greatful... even if it isn't the reason my motor wont start..

so an update then...

had the fantastic direction in person today from Ratty .. and it's great to have somoene who understands what's going on.. I just follow the destructions in the Rave and cross fingers...

there is a distinct change in engine note between turning it over with spark plugs in and with spark plugs out.. even removing one plug changes the note of it as it turns..

there is fuel getting through.. seemingly even with the fuel pump disabled.. but maybe it's just that the cylinders are so full of fuel that they are gonna take an age to clear..

tried carb cleaner down the plenum.. no change.. tested the wire - as above.. no change... used a fancy spark tester thing and the spark is present but weak.. my tester only gave a yes or no so was very useful to see.. so Ratty hovered the main lead (from the coil) over the rotor arm and got a spark.. ok..

new rotor arm.. good spark now in the tester thing.. nice.. but not really a noticeable change in the way it turns over..

so then some advice from good old dad - yesterday's advice really but ignored at the time (like all good sons do) when he said the plug gap was outrageously small .. he would have gone for 3-4 mm.. sounded daft at the time.. RAVE says 0.84 - 0.96mm.. best advice I could find was for LPG a bit bigger so were set to 1mm.. but you never know - sometimes Dad's are right.. and I could get the spark to jump a good 3-4cm if not more in ratty's fancy gadget.. so experiment time.. spark plug in cyclinder 1 out and gapped to about 2mm ish (by eye) and wow.. a bit of a cough when I turn it over.. so then all the plugs out one at a time and gaps increased to about 2mm ish (I probably need to get some feeler guages.. my spark plug gapper doesn't measure over 1mm) but now getting a distinct cough splutter turning the key.. more so with the fuel pump fuse removed almost sounds like every cylinder is trying to fire every time but not really enough to get it right started..

so decided best bet was to give it chance to rest, all the plugs out (labelled the HT leads this time so they will be quicker to put back on tomorrow) battery out and on charge (why didn't I think of that before instead of using jump leads????) and will pop the plugs in the oven for a good drying out tomorrow.. then fingers crossed...

still would love ot know what that wire is.. perhaps something wont work once I get it started.. perhaps it needs it to start..

 

[david451]

right.. that thing you saqid about thew wire kev rings a bell now.. I will have another look in the morning.. it is a white wire in a black sheath on its own.. comes off the injector loom near the alternator.. is live ignition switched.. anyone knows what it is I would be really greatful... even if it isn't the reason my motor wont start..

so an update then...

had the fantastic direction in person today from Ratty .. and it's great to have somoene who understands what's going on.. I just follow the destructions in the Rave and cross fingers...

there is a distinct change in engine note between turning it over with spark plugs in and with spark plugs out.. even removing one plug changes the note of it as it turns..

there is fuel getting through.. seemingly even with the fuel pump disabled.. but maybe it's just that the cylinders are so full of fuel that they are gonna take an age to clear..

tried carb cleaner down the plenum.. no change.. tested the wire - as above.. no change... used a fancy spark tester thing and the spark is present but weak.. my tester only gave a yes or no so was very useful to see.. so Ratty hovered the main lead (from the coil) over the rotor arm and got a spark.. ok..

new rotor arm.. good spark now in the tester thing.. nice.. but not really a noticeable change in the way it turns over..

so then some advice from good old dad - yesterday's advice really but ignored at the time (like all good sons do) when he said the plug gap was outrageously small .. he would have gone for 3-4 mm.. sounded daft at the time.. RAVE says 0.84 - 0.96mm.. best advice I could find was for LPG a bit bigger so were set to 1mm.. but you never know - sometimes Dad's are right.. and I could get the spark to jump a good 3-4cm if not more in ratty's fancy gadget.. so experiment time.. spark plug in cyclinder 1 out and gapped to about 2mm ish (by eye) and wow.. a bit of a cough when I turn it over.. so then all the plugs out one at a time and gaps increased to about 2mm ish (I probably need to get some feeler guages.. my spark plug gapper doesn't measure over 1mm) but now getting a distinct cough splutter turning the key.. more so with the fuel pump fuse removed almost sounds like every cylinder is trying to fire every time but not really enough to get it right started..

so decided best bet was to give it chance to rest, all the plugs out (labelled the HT leads this time so they will be quicker to put back on tomorrow) battery out and on charge (why didn't I think of that before instead of using jump leads????) and will pop the plugs in the oven for a good drying out tomorrow.. then fingers crossed...

still would love ot know what that wire is.. perhaps something wont work once I get it started.. perhaps it needs it to start..

Aint it possible to look at another motor for that wire placement, or post a picture of it and perhaps one of the v8 guys can look at theirs.

 

[mjltigger]

I will post a pic tomorrow..

 

[ratty]

Glad to see you've made some progress Tigger. Give me a shout if you want me to shoot back over again this afternoon.

 

[The Mad Hat Man]

Aint that wire shown in the Rave?

 

[classic kev]

Tigger, get a piccie of the wire pronto! A white wire near the alternator could be reasonably important to your starting problem. Reading your post above, you have a dizzy and coil not coil packs and crank sensor.

You say you have Rave - run the tests on the ignition circuit. Check and double check where your ignition timing is. Check and double check the inside of your distributor cap is spotlessly clean. Did you pop the dizzy out while changing your head gaskets?

 

[mjltigger]

the dizzy wasn't removed during the head change.. but the cap was off when I jet washed the rad after reassembly... so I expect that's when I mullered the rotor arm - it was a puddle underneath it.. all now cleaned out..

when I got the coughing and spluttering yesterday the lugs came out blackened.. it wiped off.. I suspect that's the first time they've actually managed to set fire to anything.. so I have high hopes for a good result this afternoon..but will also take pics of that wire..

 

[mjltigger]

it's tough to photograph but here's an attempt.. anyone with a V8 3.9 please please could you have a look and see if you have this wire and where it goes....

 

[classic kev]

Tigger,

Piccies a bit unclear but at a guess I would say there has to be a connector somewhere under there for that wire to plug into. Yours is a serpentine engine and is different to my RRC in that you have a different alternator and it's on the wrong side of the engine (compared to mine that is). I'll have look and see if I can give you any pointers but I'm afraid I don't think I've got an answer. I would say try giving eightinavee a PM.

 

[classic kev]

the dizzy wasn't removed during the head change.. but the cap was off when I jet washed the rad after reassembly...

NNNOOOOOOO:doh: That'll probably explain why the engine is struggling to fire. Make sure everything inside the dizzy is clean and dry. Did you take the flash guard off the dizzy to make sure evrything under it is dry and clean? Have you managed to upset the air gap between the pick up and reluctor? (Don't worry that's an easy fix). Are you absolutely positive your ignition timing is correct?

If you think it will fire, I would suggest getting an assistant to help you - loosen the dizzy clamp bolt so you can turn the dizzy. Mark the position of the dizzy before you do anything, that way you can set it back to where it started from.

Now, get your assistant to crank the engine over and you can then try advancing and retarding the ignition and see if you get it to fire. If it starts, try and get it to a smooth idle even if it is a little too fast then it should be a case of simply checking the timing and re-setting as needed. you might also (once it is running) check the base idle speed. Will try and get backto you on that wire but hope that helps.

 

[classic kev]

.. it is a white wire in a black sheath on its own.. comes off the injector loom near the alternator.. is live ignition switched.. anyone knows what it is I would be really greatful... even if it isn't the reason my motor wont start..

O.K. Tigger lets get down to it!! Now, I have to make some assumptions here, you have a 3.9 on hotwire injection with DLM8 dizzy and a 14 CUX ECU. Your engine is a serpentine and mine isn't. I will assume the basic circuit layouts are the same as the injection system should be the same.

So here goes. I have checked the main wiring diagrams for my RRC and also looked over the spare injection loom I have. The white wire that is not connected could well be why your engine won't fire. The white wire is most likely on the ignition circuit and I would wager is probably the feed for the ignition amplifier.

Right or wrong let's see if we can narrow this down a bit. Look at your coil - there should be a white wire on the + terminal this is the ignition live feed. The white wire splits in the loom the other end of it goes to the ignition amplifier along with a white and black stripe wire, the amplifier wires have a moulded black plug on them that connect it to the amplifier on the side of the distributor. Unless you have a remote amplifier.

Note also there should be a capacitor attached to the coil + side. The white and black stripe wire (coil negative) also splits in the loom - this goes to pin 39 on your ECU and is the engine speed input. This wire comes out from the loom under the Air Flow Meter plug.

So that deals with the basic ignition circuit.

The alternator (there may be differences here so be careful). Main cable, big and red or brown simple enough. There should be a smaller brown and yellow stripe wire, this is the sensing wire that goes to your charge light on the dash. Then there should be a white with grey stripe wire, this will probably have an insulated spade connector, this is the RPM input for your rev counter.

Last bit, injection harness. The injectors are not fired sequntially so that makes things a bit easier. As long as you have the left and right banks the right way round there should be no problem. The injector plugs are normally a grey colour but there are two other connectors - one black and one white. The white connector is for the coolant temperature thermistor and the other is for the fuel temperature thermistor. The coolant sensor is the one at the front right hand side (when facing your engine). Basically it is on the top there behind your dizzy. The fuel one is the one on the fuel rail (unsurprisingly:doh.

So hopefully you can now check that you have all the right ignition wires and injection wires in the right place. All other things being equal I hope you can get it started.

Good Luck.

 

[mjltigger]

all of them wires are in place.. although where they split from the loom is different by the sounds of it.. not tried to start it yet today.. but just about to go out to it.. battery been on charge and plugs out to let cylinders vent.. the plugs are gonna go in the oven for 1/2 hour while I get sommat to eat and then I'll have a go.. will let you know what I find..

and I know that wire might be the reason it wont start but until I find out where it's supposed to be plugged in I'm still stuck

 

[classic kev]

Well if all the basic wires are connected it should go shouldn't it? - mind you it is a V8 I know that feeling all too well.

 

[classic kev]

Just a thought, can you clarify that this white wire comes out of the injection loom. Are you sure it doesn't come out from the loom with the alternator wires. My thought is that there are some slight differences to what I am used to looking at but the only white wire in the injection loom is the one that comes out from under the AFM plug and goes to coil negative, but that one has a black stripe on it.

I can only think that a white wire will be 12v feed for coil or ignition amplifier. Am curious to know what it is now.

 

[ratty]

Kev. I was over Tiggers yesterday. The wire won't reach anywhere near the coil. It will only reach across the front of the engine and halfway down the drivers side. From memory, the coil on my old 3.5 carbed V8 was on the passenger side and towards the back of the bulkhead. His coil was towards the front but the wire is about a foot or so short of reaching the coil and has no way of being rerouted to be able to reach it. I couldn't see anything for it to go on either. The metal spade contacts inside the plastic were dirty but not corroded so didn't really give any sort of indication as to wether it was used or redundant. The wire was showing as an earth with the ignition off and switched to live with it on.