300 auto,engine wont turn over by hand

As above,so below.My jap spec 300 auto has had the head put back on,went to do the valve spacing but now the engine wont turn over with a spanner on the crank more than a quarter turn.The transmission is in Park but it has the battery off so cant move to Neutral but this shouldnt be an issue,should it?The engine turned over freely enough with the head off,as I remember, it was a while ago but didnt notice anything untoward.The injectors are OUT so there shouldnt be a compression issue.

First,I shall take off the rocker shaft to see if it will turn over without the valves in play.If it does,I would have thought it was a stuck valve.If so,head off and rebuild.If it comes to that I shall build the LR one that I just had skimmed rather than this copy part that I dont have full faith in.

IF it isnt a stuck valve,what else could it be?Surely there are no immobiliser issues with the battery off and car in Park,....are there?

Anybody got any ideas? The vehicle is stuck in someone elses drive 25 miles away so I have to make time to get over there, try to do some work,then come home to get online.

I dont think that my head is on the right way round today............:doh:

unlikely stuck valve i never seen one that was except through contact with timing belt failure and valve stem bent,undo all rocker adjusters and back off first then adjust if you had head skimmed how much ? because by rights you should cut valve seats in as much to maintain valve clearance from piston top ,most fit 3 hole gasket or thicker to take account of this ,you should allways back off adjusters before setting tappets if replacing head, other causes of valve hitting piston are incorrect timing ie belt slipped,valve seat dropping out (which can happen on over heatde head as heat takes all the stress out of head casting which removes the interferance fit which holds seats and core plugs valve guides in, or not seating push rod in cup in follower properly you need to twist them to feel that there seated

The head I fitted to this vehicle was not skimmed.It has been sitting,built,valves properly lapped etc for a couple of years,wrapped up and stored.It isnt the head that came off the engine when it had a spectacular gasket fail with pots full of water.It was fitted to this engine for 2 days in which time the MLS gasket failed ant the pots filled with water again but with no overheat.The engine ran,did not stop of its own accord,I turned it off and it then became impossible to restart due to the water.This was all in another thread about MLS gaskets last year.

I will try the push rods as you say James,thank you.

If,however,with the valve gear disconnected,it will still not turn over from the crank,by spanner,what could be happening?There is no water in the engine.....what could it be?

heres a link to the previous problems that lead to the head coming off again.....

http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f8/300tdi-auto-non-starter-w-massive-current-drain-118849.html

and here to the bit about the MLS gasket fiasco...

so engine been stood a bit and had water down pots ,easy have rust mark down bores ,bent rod ,slipped belt ,piston picked up on bore ,tightest part is skirt ,i would need a better descriptoin of previous events than i could make from previous thread

OK.Didnt sit with water in,mopped it all out and had light oil sprayed over it regularly.Moved pistons up and down before fitting head to check for rust rings,not much evident but scrubbed out with paraffin anyway.Could have bent a rod when water locked,likewise belt could have slipped.

I will post again later when I have had a chance to try it without the valve gear,and list the whole story and history of parts used then.Thanks James, I appreciate in your in depth help and generosity with your time.

Right,just got back from wrestling with that engine :

Slacked off the rocker adjuster screws and took the shaft off.Engine turned over fine by spanner.
Replaced shaft and seated each pushrod in turn,resting the loose rocker on each to hold in place.Bolted down the shaft,took up most of the play on the adjust screws but did not tighten locknuts.Engine turned over freely on the spanner.
Used rule of nine to set each of the rockers to spec gap,marking them with pen as I went.Engine continued to turn freely from spanner on crankshaft nut.
Continued to turn engine now using socket and ratchet to allow faster action,engine continued to turn freely through several complete cycles.

So....problem solved?I hope so.I couldnt feel any change in resistance other than that of compressing springs and didnt feel any valve/piston strike.So what was it? The pushrod not seated suggested by James seems favourite....would be the first time thats ever happened to me,but theres always a first time.

Time will tell,as the engine is put back together and started.Again.Thanks for all the help,I will update as things happen.I doubt I can get over there again for a couple of days,so watch this space.........

shocks

PS...the full scenario seems a little uneeded at the mo.....if more problems follow,so will the story

at the end of exhaust stroke tdc you have valve overlap where both exhaust and inlet valves are partially open one closing other opening,when you look at depth of valve head from clyinder face and the fact that pistons protrude past block face you dont need much to get valve to touch piston

UPDATE

finally got everything back together,flattened the battery trying to blled and start last night,charged over night,got a friend to crank as I watched.....oil absolutely ****ing out at O/S front and O/S of head.So,thats no good then.

All prepped properly,bolts not bottomed out,dry or fouled.But even though all the torque and angle was correct,just didnt feel right.Now I know why.

This story goes back to my first disco some years ago.It did a couple of head gaskets in a couple of months,so I splashed out on a replacement,new head from a local independent.My old dad (with a lifetimes experience of such) built it for me,and it went on the lump fine.BUT,first day I used it,I had an oil pressure light come on,with no overheat.We figured internal engine problems,oil pump and such,so had the lump out and stripped it and shelved the head as a good one since it hadnt been hot.So we thought.
Anyway,several discos later,last year,my jap spec blew its head gasket and filled the pots with water,so the head came off,it was dried out and re lubed,and since there was this "good" new head that had only been used for a couple of hours at the most,on it went with a MLS gasket.Next day it failed,wouldnt start,I thought "it CANT be the head,its new" and after a day or two fiddling,had the head off again to find it with pots full of water....again "it CANT be the new head"....so it must be the MLS gasket.So,all cleaned up and dewaterd and kept lightly oiled all winter,back together with an Elring composite gasket,which I have more faith in.With the "good" , "new" head again.

Finally ready to go yesterday after lots of teething troubles,kindly sorted by you lot,thank you,.......only to have it ****ing oil today,not even started.Now,I had put the original disco's engine oil pressure failure down to gummed up pump and oil ways ,and the original head gasket failures down to a bad radiator.Now I am thinking that the oil pressure problem on the old disco,"weigh",was down to this "good,new" bloody head.And the recent failures on "pfta" too.

The company I bought it from I have long fallen out with,over sale of goods act stuff - they had several issues with other people calling the trading standards in.So I dont think I will ever get anywhere with them,3+ years later.

All the work has been done slowly and scrupulously ,new head bolts etc.But I have shafted myself all the way along by making assumptions.Lessons in there somewhere,but I dont really want to hear them today.So....I have had the head that came off the pfta,the jap spec 300 skimmed,I have to buy ANOTHER gasket and headset,MORE sodding bolts........and get this genuine LR,skimmed head pressure tested before it goes on,.........my back cant take much more of this!

Anyone know a pressure tester Bodmin/Liskeard area that wont skin me alive ?

the oil feed for head is front o/s corner ,have you gog gasket on right way round cos other end has no gasket there its rounded of on the corner

I think so! Cant be sure now without having it off again ! Starting to doubt everything now,I have thought about it so much.

Even so,if the oil can come out like that,surely the head is not fitting tight enough to start with? Or not ?

And thank you,again!,James

Im back at home now,and the car is 20 miles away,so I cant check.Theres no one there I can call who would understand what I am asking.Which side should the thickness holes be on?Drivers? Im confusing myself now,been worrying at this so long.Used to be that a head gasket was a mornings work,but disability has made it a real chore.Never had this much trouble over one,never.Until this one.

they are on drivers side but toward front if wrong rear if right, head gasket is symmetrical end over end but for corner front has square corner to allow for oil feed back is rounded off so oil feed would have no gasket at all around it giving gap for oil to pour out as thick as gasket

ohhh,cannot recall now,will have to be tomorrow when I can next get over.But it still means a new gasket...doesnt it?

i would if its that

Thanks mate,I will update tomorrow....front is wrong,rear is right

Had the head off last night,globs of mayo etc.......I really HAD put the gasket on flipped end over,thus,as James says,oil way wasnt covered at front,hence oil pumping out as turned over......DOH ! :doh::doh::doh:

note to self : stop taking LSD before working on engines.........

However,taking some of the headbolts out I noticed what I thought of them as they went in......that they didnt seem universally tight. Despite thorough cleaning of the boltholes and threads chased out,cleaned again,dried,light smear of oil on bolt threads going in ( not at end and not enough to obstruct) and new,tested torque wrench used,correct sequence and angles throughout.I have noticed this before on other alloy heads,volvos etc,and it has never been a problem.

I have some worries about the softness of this Tata indian made head.It is so soft that it had taken up a slight imprint of the previous gasket,not enough to warrant a skim but visible when cleaned.Can scratch with a razor blade,a double edge saftey blade held loose in the hand whilst drawing,not pushing,across to clean.Plus the bolts seem to cut in to the head when tightened.

Bear in mind that this head was bought new,fitted to car for a day or so that then had an oil pressure fault (no overheat),left on the shelf then fitted to this car,the jap spec 300 for a day or soo with an MLS gasket where the pots filled with water so engine would not turn over,taken off and cleaned and shelved,then fitted this time.Admittedly it was me that cocked the gasket this time.

I am wondering whether it may be an idea to use washers from a peugot XUD boltset - they are used on the soft alloy heads.The workshop manual/rave says that bolts are to be used no more than 5 times.These bolts have been used to fit the MLS gasket with this head and the Elring that I just fitted backwards (idiot) so,seeing as this head has NOT been skimmed,they SHOULD be right for another fit at least.

I have the head back home with me now,so I will take off the thermostat (to get a clear shot at cleaning it out) and go see my skimmer bloke and see if he will get a straight-edge on it,just in case,before I fit it,....again !

shocker said:

However,taking some of the headbolts out I noticed what I thought of them as they went in......that they didnt seem universally tight. Despite thorough cleaning of the boltholes and threads chased out,cleaned again,dried,light smear of oil on bolt threads going in ( not at end and not enough to obstruct) and new,tested torque wrench used,correct sequence and angles throughout.I have noticed this before on other alloy heads,volvos etc,and it has never been a problem.

I have some worries about the softness of this Tata indian made head.It is so soft that it had taken up a slight imprint of the previous gasket,not enough to warrant a skim but visible when cleaned.Can scratch with a razor blade,a double edge saftey blade held loose in the hand whilst drawing,not pushing,across to clean.Plus the bolts seem to cut in to the head when tightened.

Bear in mind that this head was bought new,fitted to car for a day or so that then had an oil pressure fault (no overheat),left on the shelf then fitted to this car,the jap spec 300 for a day or soo with an MLS gasket where the pots filled with water so engine would not turn over,taken off and cleaned and shelved,then fitted this time.Admittedly it was me that cocked the gasket this time.

I am wondering whether it may be an idea to use washers from a peugot XUD boltset - they are used on the soft alloy heads.The workshop manual/rave says that bolts are to be used no more than 5 times.These bolts have been used to fit the MLS gasket with this head and the Elring that I just fitted backwards (idiot) so,seeing as this head has NOT been skimmed,they SHOULD be right for another fit at least.

I have the head back home with me now,so I will take off the thermostat (to get a clear shot at cleaning it out) and go see my skimmer bloke and see if he will get a straight-edge on it,just in case,before I fit it,....again !

Click to expand...

new head bolts or old bolts did you use