Rear diff

started wondering the other day would if be possible to fit a rear diff locker to the rear diff what would stop you doing it, i know you cant do much with front and people will say theres not much point but you never know it might just get you out of a situation and it would be another step in right direction

:hysterically_laughi

simple things, simple mind you must have a tractor simple

Hi,

I very interesting but puzzling post. I am NOT laughing at the concept - perhaps the hydraulic one as fitted to some rare versions of the Brazilian-built Military VW Fox / Jackal, could be adapted??? But .....

Can you give me any example situation at all where having a locking diff on a Freelander would enhance it's capabilities?

I have driven Freelanders off-road on 4 continents for over 10 years.

I bought a Freelander after seeing one in action with the Austrian army in the Alps in 2001.

I use a Freelander by choice as opposed to any other 4X4.

Not in 'artificial' exercises or competitions - although there is a lot of good fun to be found there too.

I work in 'Special Operations' Humanitarian Aid - in real life situations where to get to my destination is often a matter of genuine life and death (not often for me I hasten to add.) At times I needed to use a Unimog due to deep mud and having to cross rivers in spate. Sometimes I have used a Mercedes 1017 4X4 truck with a snorkel.

I know the capability and the limits of a Freelander - in my opinion only low ground clearance is a disadvantage.

What can be gained from a locking diff?

I have a hydraulic diff-lock on my Merdedes-Benz Sprinter and it is a great boon on it in the winter - Don't try off-roading in a Sprinter, by the way!

I have used a diff lock on various other cross-country type vehicles and was delighted that on a Freelander I don't have one, and don't need one.

Without any extra knobs, levers, switches, axle turn-locks, etc to bother with - and an auto-box - I can concentrate exclusively on steering over / around obstacles.

Regards,

more of a wonder really just wondered im an engineer by trade and i like little challenges and thoughts runn through my head, but my only though was when you get the two opisit wheels spinning (front right/ rear left diff) doing its thing, then you would lock diff and you might get a bit of traction form rear right to help to get unstuck rather then towed or winching yourself.

but some times i would just like to have a chat about something different other then throwing abuse at tractor and disco boys even thought it is fun and mods and upgrades seamed the way to go

In my experience / thoughts, the situation you describe - diagonally opposite wheels with no grip - the 2 remaining wheels give all the traction needed.

With the Freelander set-up even if one wheel alone has grip, as on icy surfaces, then that is enough, I believe.

I saw a very recent comment from Hippo that because the weight is more to the front than the rear, a FL is very rarely balanced on two opposite wheels, as the weight of the front brings the other front wheel down. So really its a 'rear wheel in the air' no-grip situation that is possible.

I understand exactly where you are coming from, but it seems a lot of work / effort for what I imagine is a very, very small improvement in traction - once in a blue moon.

Good topic though - I agree with you it's good to have a discussion without needless insult throwing.

Someone may well be totally wrong and speaking a load of c**p but nobody need to be rude in pointing that out.

Happy New Year

thank you good and fair points the only other thing i wondered was it you did it would the vis cup be up to the job and manly enough

gjudge said:

thank you good and fair points the only other thing i wondered was it you did it would the vis cup be up to the job and manly enough

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Well that's the thing - isn't it? Extra strain on other parts.

I can remember when Ford experimented with 4X4 Capris - mind boggles now Eh!!- and they just snapped the drive-shafts 'like carrots' was the Ford Motorsport comment at the time.

Have you had a look at the VW Fox / Jackal I mentioned? Interesting little vehicle - we had them in Kosovo. Lots of strange 4X4s are available even today in Alpine countries - you can even buy a 4X4 VW Golf in most Dealers in Switzerland. Very small production and v expensive.

Look out - nostalgia's about .........Did you ever hear of an Austrian 4X4 called a Haflinger - named after the mountain horse - they were pretty rare in the UK - and they were LHD only I think. They were a superb machine - climbed ridiculous slopes and traversed along the slope without toppling over either. I still see the odd one or two on farms in Austria.

They died out when Mercedes Benz bought Steyr Puch. The Mercedes G-wagons are still branded as Steyr Puchs in Austria, where they are built - national pride does not allow them to put M-B badges on the ones for the home market.

Nice topic. You must consider that FL has traction control, so she can apply break pressure to the spinning wheel and redirect torque to the opposite wheel that has traction. It is less effective than a true diff lock, but helps a lot.
From my own (very short) off-road experience with FL and from some videos I’ve watched on Youtube, a diff lock would be useful only on very steep AND slippery tracks, when the traction control is not able to keep sending enough torque to both rear wheels.
I found this video useful to understand diff lock x traction control:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2wkW05Pc6c]Air Locker vs LSD vs Traction Control Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]
It would be nice to see such a comparison with Freelanders.
I do very light off-road with my FL, so traction control is good enough. I don’t need diff lock. But for people who do challenging tracks maybe this could be helpful.
Happy New Year!!

Aaa I got 98 freelander with no tc but yes that would act like diff lock Good point

gjudge said:

Aaa I got 98 freelander with no tc but yes that would act like diff lock Good point

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Ah - now I understand too - with you not having TC, I can see what you are seeking to improve.

Methinks you need a newer Freelander - Ha Ha.

I like the TD4 Freelander because it is a complex beast, and so driving it is easy. With a lot of selectable bits and bobs the driver needs to be top notch 100% to know when to switch what, or push the right lever.

After being on more than a few driving courses and demonstration testing tracks, I want the vehicle to do as much as possible without me having to intervene.

Having said that - I'm no expert off-roader, but I can do things with a Freelander that needs a pretty capable driver on a more conventional set up LandRover.

The problem is that many - not all, by any means -drivers of the big machines, think that raw brute force is the answer - no chance.

Youtube is full of scenes of folks with capable machines who haven't got a clue how to get the best out of them.

Buying a £10,000 gun will not get you any more pheasants if you cant shoot straight.

Have a good new year folks - I will 'cause I'm going cross-country, off-roading through a forest, and a peat bog tomorrow.

Have a good time then mate and take lots of pictures for us have a happy new year to you and family

Singvogel said:

Well that's the thing - isn't it? Extra strain on other parts.

I can remember when Ford experimented with 4X4 Capris - mind boggles now Eh!!- and they just snapped the drive-shafts 'like carrots' was the Ford Motorsport comment at the time.

Have you had a look at the VW Fox / Jackal I mentioned? Interesting little vehicle - we had them in Kosovo. Lots of strange 4X4s are available even today in Alpine countries - you can even buy a 4X4 VW Golf in most Dealers in Switzerland. Very small production and v expensive.

Look out - nostalgia's about .........Did you ever hear of an Austrian 4X4 called a Haflinger - named after the mountain horse - they were pretty rare in the UK - and they were LHD only I think. They were a superb machine - climbed ridiculous slopes and traversed along the slope without toppling over either. I still see the odd one or two on farms in Austria.

They died out when Mercedes Benz bought Steyr Puch. The Mercedes G-wagons are still branded as Steyr Puchs in Austria, where they are built - national pride does not allow them to put M-B badges on the ones for the home market.

Click to expand...

There is (or was - the site seems to not be working fully) a lot of info on the Steyr Puch transmissions used by VW on the UK Syncronauts website which you might find interesting reading (when it becomes available again....)

The T3 van was assembled in Germany and shipped to Austria by rail to have the transmission / running gear fitted - made them ridiculously expensive compared with a Ford Transit fitted with a County 4x4 conversion, hence there's not that many left over here; under 200 iirc, but the system of VC and independent rear & optional front lockers makes them very capable.


But then I am slightly biased

Have to admit that video above surprises me. I would have thought a good traction control set-up would have got him to the top. By comparison the version in the Freelander 1 seems quite good. A Freelander looks lighter than the vehicles they were using. Key to getting mine to work best on steep hills is running the engine at about 1800 revs in first (auto) gear. If say running at 1400 revs then traction control isn’t as effective. You find out by loosing momentum and can’t get enough grip to get started. Reverse un try again at 1800 and you’ll get further. So I’m wondering if their vehicles conveniently had the same issue?

I’ve driven a newish type transit on snow and ice. It had traction control. Worked but it needed a bit of thinking. On tick over on ice it would break 1 wheel, while powering the other. If I added revs then both front wheels would spin. You could feel the traction control and brakes operating but the van didn’t move.

Traction control stops spinning wheels, allow power to go to the wheels with the most grip. The system uses abs pulses to control the wheel breaking. So I can’t see what a rear diff lock would do different?

Rear diff locker = both rear wheels turn at the same time constant. If one has grip and the other is in the air, then this is the same as a traction controlled vehicle with 1 rear wheel having grip, and the other in the air.

Or has I missed somefink?

Hippo said:

Traction control stops spinning wheels, allow power to go to the wheels with the most grip. The system uses abs pulses to control the wheel breaking. So I can’t see what a rear diff lock would do different?

Rear diff locker = both rear wheels turn at the same time constant. If one has grip and the other is in the air, then this is the same as a traction controlled vehicle with 1 rear wheel having grip, and the other in the air.

Or has I missed somefink?

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I think that about sums it up Hippo. Diff lock was a mechanical forerunner of todays complicated systems, as I understand it. Traction control is good and as you say works better at higher revs, possibly because there's more slippage to detect? No idea, to be honest, but I do find all the variations over the years quite interesting.

RED 109 CSW said:

I think that about sums it up Hippo. Diff lock was a mechanical forerunner of todays complicated systems, as I understand it. Traction control is good and as you say works better at higher revs, possibly because there's more slippage to detect? No idea, to be honest, but I do find all the variations over the years quite interesting.

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Quite right about the slippage, at any speed.

My M-B Sprinter has both Traction Control and a hydraulic Diff-Lock. Totally different uses.

Typical situation is that the TC will come in if you're accelerating out of a roundabout in slippery conditions. Especially if lightly laden.

In ice or mud the traction control on a 2-wheel drive does not help much in getting you going - you land up with a lot of noisy whirring and clunking - you do get moving, but it's not pretty. The TC waits to detect slippage before it cuts in - and you need to apply lots of extra throttle to get anything even remotely like a smooth take off from a standing start.

However if you select the Diff-Lock - you just pull away slowly and once you're moving turn it off. Not a lot of use on tarmac though - even when wet - you could easily damage the axle unit trying to turn a tight bend. I just use the Diff-Lock to get me rolling, no more.

Diff-locks have their uses - but I don't think a Freelander needs one!

Fit a difflock it will perform great!!

I'm never on this section I'm not a huge Freelander fan and am indeed a tractor driver by choice. That said a FL isn't all bad. I reckon you could adopt/modify build somthing. I recently got a lock right Very simple but not quite what I need. I have a detroit in the rear of my 90 and it transforms the motor offroad. It takes strain off the front end but I would suggest you uprate the rear shafts aswell as these get alot more grief when it gets bad.

I have driven different motors in a warzone and my personal choice was an old battered white hylux, reliable and tough more importantly blends in with the locals. We had F350's toyota surfs & hylux's. Sorry to say this but I do genuinly believe a FL wouldn't take well to the hours of constant use offroad at speed. We drove from Kabul to Bamiyan took 8 hours at speed shocks lasted 3 to 4 hrs if driving steadyish. Slow was not an option (Yanks for you) we did slow down to give water to many of the kids in the smaller villages en route but that was a stop of no more than 2 minutes each. Motors get a hiding in all weather conditions be it minus 20 deg C & 4 foot of snow or 30deg C rocky river beds and mountain passes. Vehicles need to be overly engineerd like defenders hyluxs and toyota Surfs IMO. Freelanders get alot of atick not all justified but the cost of getting them out somwhere and keeping them going is outweighed by the simple and robustness of other motors. Every time I went down town you could be sure to see things that just wasn't right and pure stupidness with regard aid agencies. Young ladies and a single hired Afghanny driver. No guards, No weapons nothing to stop a bribed driver or chance kidnap attempt. On one occasion the driver and Afghan driver went into a shop and left their vehicle unattended. My ex brit gurkha stayed with the cars and I followed into the shop. I needed some bits from the shop next door any how. The young lady was totally oblivious to any danger and this was a week or so after 2 Irish UN workers a few Phillipino's were kidnapped and the elections were taking place. (not the best time by any means). Heard many horror stories Classic was an aid agency worker Male driving through Khost, Pakistan boarder and decided to stop to look over the vehicle. Khost was not the place to be back then! Luckily a passing yank convoy told him in no uncertain terms to follow them back to his camp which pleased the camp manager no end. I had a steak and a few mountain Dews with a young lad who was one of the Yank Convoy.

Back to topic:

I quite fancy a Freelander for myself I think it could be V8'd and comp safari raced in an ALRC regs and would be quite good at it Pending stronger shafts suspension/ suapension mounts etc if it could be sourced or made (within regs).

Hi jai_landrover,

You said "Sorry to say this but I do genuinly believe a FL wouldn't take well to the hours of constant use offroad at speed."

Dead right.

In Kosovo and Albania we used all types of 4X4 along roads a UK farmer wouldn't go with a tractor. No tarmac to speak of really only a series of holes like a mosaic.

The old beat up slow Landrovers kept on going right through to the end of our tour.

The locally sourced Toyotas and Nissans etc were capable of going so fast that the drivers broke 'em. We blended in well too - the bloody Ruskis fired at us.

Non of the owner-drivers with us (me included) had any major break-downs as we were usually able to negotiate the tricky bits at a sympathetic speed. The guys who were as mad as snakes and got most wheels off the ground for half of the time broke pretty near everything it was possible to break - on vehicles they hadn't paid for of course.

Very interesting thread, this.

Happy Days

Singvogel said:

you could easily damage the axle unit trying to turn a tight bend. I just use the Diff-Lock to get me rolling, no more.

Diff-locks have their uses - but I don't think a Freelander needs one!

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I quite disagree. I believed the topic was a rear axle locker. However a manual difflock instead of a VCU is not a bad idea at all. Unnessasary on a FL tho.

As for damage. Yes you could damage drivetrain IF driven for miles and I mean miles on a surface with maximum grip with decenty tyres unless the drivetrain is already worn or built of insufficient strength. Tyres will give before any drivetrain (of any decent quiality/servicable) would be damaged. What you would do would be would increase wear on items and if you are driving in centre difflock anyone worth their salt would know by feel tightness of the vehicle after a while. I myself have driven at speed upto 60Mph on patchy icy snow covered tarmac for approx 30 miles daily. My transfer box did not explode nor did any other components. I agree more wear on items but the predictability of the vehicle when locked on icy patchy snow covered tarmac is far better than unlocked. I believe Trans Wind up is far too often spoke of. If you go off good ground put it in No question! I Agree after miles and miles it can do damage on a constant gopod grippy surface. It was an issue years ago alot of people did not understand how it all works and had been driving around for months in difflock. Not putting it in when you should i.e crossing a wet grassy field can do far more damage than putting it in and driving on it for a short period.

Depending

Hi Singvogel,

One of my pet hates is difflock. (Not yourself) but many others that should know better scaremoungering the newbies about the use of difflock. I have a few contacts in Kosovo. Would love to go over there at some point many of my friends in Afghan were ex Dyn from Kosovo. Some were Nutters some Mainly the Brit guys all had their head screwed on. I have alot of time for all of them.