I need some guidance.

I'm trying to figure out a a way to get deeper into the desert and a
4x4 is it. ( Anza Borrego National Park in Southern California).

I've never owned a 4x4 vehicle and I'm not even sure if the difference
between that and an all-wheel drive vehicle. But less than that, I'm
having a difficult time justifying buying a vehicle that I'm only going
to use a few times a year, that just doesn't make sense to me. So do
what do most of you do?

- Is your 4x4 your primary commuter vehicle? ( this would make sense,
but my daily commute is long, I need to make it in a fuel efficient
car, now I get 38mpg, I know a 4x4 won't do that)

- How do you justify the costs of owning an extra vehicle?

- How do you buy a used 4x4 vehicle that can potentially break in the
middle of nowhere?

Thanks,

-Alex

nightrider.36 wrote:

> I'm trying to figure out a a way to get deeper into the desert and a
> 4x4 is it. ( Anza Borrego National Park in Southern California).
>
> I've never owned a 4x4 vehicle and I'm not even sure if the difference
> between that and an all-wheel drive vehicle. But less than that, I'm
> having a difficult time justifying buying a vehicle that I'm only going
> to use a few times a year, that just doesn't make sense to me. So do
> what do most of you do?
>
> - Is your 4x4 your primary commuter vehicle? ( this would make sense,
> but my daily commute is long, I need to make it in a fuel efficient
> car, now I get 38mpg, I know a 4x4 won't do that)
>
> - How do you justify the costs of owning an extra vehicle?
>
> - How do you buy a used 4x4 vehicle that can potentially break in the
> middle of nowhere?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Alex
>
Justification is easy. You want a new toy to have fun with.
What more could you need?
A true off road desert vehicle shouldn't be your daily
driver. What happens if you break it on the trail? How would
you get to work.
Even a new truck can leave you stranded on the trail. I'v
seen it happen. Get a truck that's in as good of mechanical
condition as you can afford, have a professional mechanic look it
over before buying. Carry spares of common items. Learn you to
fix things good enough to get you home. Travel with friends and
their vehicles.
Be prepared to spend the night out there, and hike back the
next day. Sometimes that happens. When you're out in boondocks,
AAA won't rescue you. That's just part of the fun.

--
..boB
2006 FXDI hot rod
2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92
1966 Mustang Coupe - Daily Driver
1965 FFR Cobra - 427W EFI, Damn Fast.

1) 4x4 usually means full time 4 wheel drive - only for use off pavement or
on loose traction surfaces (i.e. dirt, sand, gravel, mud). All wheel drive
usually means the vehicle will automatically adjust the percent of torque
between the front and rear axles based on what ever parameters the
engineer(s) demeed appropriate. If driving off highway buy a 4x4 (unless
you can't tell when to use 4x4 and when not to in which case you shouldn't
go into the desert).

2) Justify the vehicle on how often you go to places where you will
need/want the extra capability to either drive into or out of your choosen
destination. I own 2 4x4 vehicles for different purposes. I justified the
purchase of an economical daily driver buy comparing the purchase cost
against the improved fuel mileage of said daily driver.

3) A good rule of thumb to remember is... you will walk out 2 miles if you
have a 2 wheel drive, you will walk out 4 miles if you have a 4 wheel drive,
you will walk out 6 miles if you have a 4 wheel drive with a winch. Always
carry extra water, food, blankets, clothing, boots, shovels, flash lights,
batteries, glow sticks, candles, matches/lighters, knifes, knife sharpeners,
saws, shovels, jacks, maps, tow straps, rope, etcetera, etcetera.

4) If you are new to 4x4 adventures, look for local clubs. A friend and I
are going to either Salton City or Anza Borrego Saturday, November 18 and
staying for a few days to watch the Leonid meteor shower. If you reply to
my e-mail address before then maybe you can join us and see what it's like.


"nightrider.36" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm trying to figure out a a way to get deeper into the desert and a
> 4x4 is it. ( Anza Borrego National Park in Southern California).
>
> I've never owned a 4x4 vehicle and I'm not even sure if the difference
> between that and an all-wheel drive vehicle. But less than that, I'm
> having a difficult time justifying buying a vehicle that I'm only going
> to use a few times a year, that just doesn't make sense to me. So do
> what do most of you do?
>
> - Is your 4x4 your primary commuter vehicle? ( this would make sense,
> but my daily commute is long, I need to make it in a fuel efficient
> car, now I get 38mpg, I know a 4x4 won't do that)
>
> - How do you justify the costs of owning an extra vehicle?
>
> - How do you buy a used 4x4 vehicle that can potentially break in the
> middle of nowhere?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Alex
>

Ed, where will you guys go camping out there? Leonids!! that sounds
intense--it's a good light show, I've seen it a few times--once out in
the Mojave.

The thing with the justification is this--and granted, this may just be
me being ignorant of the 4x4 lifestyle so give me some slack there...

It seems like I'd be paying for two or three vehicles. My commuter
vehicle, my wife's commuter and now a 4x4 (toy) vehicle. So wouldn't I
be paying insurance on the 4x4? registration? and maybe more payments
for a dependable off-road vehicle? I have a good job and not
destitute, I can afford a new jeep or something similar. But it just
seems like an unwise use of finances for something I'm not going to use
daily. Or is it one of those things where that's the cost of having fun
and I should just suck it up--I can. I just need to know if there are
more frugal alternatives.

All I want to do is more interesting hiking and not 4x4 rock crawling.
Jeeps are more expensive (>$20,000) than I'd like to spend on this
hobby and I don't trust a used Jeep--or should I?


> 2) Justify the vehicle on how often you go to places where you will
> need/want the extra capability to either drive into or out of your choosen
> destination. I own 2 4x4 vehicles for different purposes. I justified the
> purchase of an economical daily driver buy comparing the purchase cost
> against the improved fuel mileage of said daily driver.
>
> 4) If you are new to 4x4 adventures, look for local clubs. A friend and I
> are going to either Salton City or Anza Borrego Saturday, November 18 and
> staying for a few days to watch the Leonid meteor shower. If you reply to
> my e-mail address before then maybe you can join us and see what it's like.
>

Why don't you trust a Jeep?? That's one of the oldest and most proven
designs still in production. Sure, the brand new Wranglers are
different than a CJ2A, but the basic design elements are still there.
They're simple and functional. Jeep's 4.0L six-cylinder is a solid,
proven engine, and most will come with Dana axles.

I would personally get a used Jeep CJ-7, or an older SUV-type (I hate
the term SUV applied to the following TRUCKS, but...) such as a Chevy
Blazer, Dodge Ramcharger, or Ford Bronco. All of the above in their
earlier incarnations are fairly simple vehicles without complicated
electrical systems or computers. Each is capable of carrying plenty of
supplies for you and a few others for hiking trips.

With any off road vehicle, a good solid drivetrain is the most
important thing. If the engine, transmission and axles are all in
sound mechanical condition, then you have the makings of a good
reliable off-road vehicle. The cosmetics are of no importance off
road, and frankly, the worse, the better. Having a well-worn vehicle
is great on trails because you don't have to be concerned about
scratching a nice paint job. You will eventually scratch or dent
something off road...it's all part of the package. Finally, if you get
dirty, you won't have any regrets about hopping back into your older
vehicle with dirty, muddy, or wet clothing.

By the way, if you spend >$20,000 for a vehicle that'll be used only
occasionally just to get you further out into the desert, then you'll
have spent about $15,000+/- too much. My rust-free 1986 Chevy K5
Blazer cost me around $3800 back in 2002. It was a former Police
truck--low mileage (around 100k at the time, not bad for a then-16yr
old truck), solid body, and basic interior (vinyls seats, rubber floor)
that just screams "get me dirty". I can practically hose it out when
I'm done...

The only problem I ever had with *stock* component failure was an
alternator and a rear axle failure (it wasn't the axle itself, just the
stock locker...a known weak point). Any other problems were,
unfortunately, self-inflicted... :-(

Just my $.02, and good luck...

~jp

nightrider.36 wrote:
> Ed, where will you guys go camping out there? Leonids!! that sounds
> intense--it's a good light show, I've seen it a few times--once out in
> the Mojave.
>
> The thing with the justification is this--and granted, this may just be
> me being ignorant of the 4x4 lifestyle so give me some slack there...
>
> It seems like I'd be paying for two or three vehicles. My commuter
> vehicle, my wife's commuter and now a 4x4 (toy) vehicle. So wouldn't I
> be paying insurance on the 4x4? registration? and maybe more payments
> for a dependable off-road vehicle? I have a good job and not
> destitute, I can afford a new jeep or something similar. But it just
> seems like an unwise use of finances for something I'm not going to use
> daily. Or is it one of those things where that's the cost of having fun
> and I should just suck it up--I can. I just need to know if there are
> more frugal alternatives.
>
> All I want to do is more interesting hiking and not 4x4 rock crawling.
> Jeeps are more expensive (>$20,000) than I'd like to spend on this
> hobby and I don't trust a used Jeep--or should I?

Jon R. Pickens wrote:
> Why don't you trust a Jeep?? That's one of the oldest and most proven
> designs still in production. Sure, the brand new Wranglers are

I don't trust a used Jeep because I don't know anything about Jeeps, in
general. Right now, I simply see it as a used car that you're going to
take out somewhere to further beat the crap out of. But I've never
purchased a used car before, let alone--a used jeep, I don't know
anything about them. Maybe it would be good and I just need to know
what to look for in used jeep. It's just ignorance and my learning
process, Jon--that's all.

> different than a CJ2A, but the basic design elements are still there.
> They're simple and functional. Jeep's 4.0L six-cylinder is a solid,
> proven engine, and most will come with Dana axles.

What's a Dana axle? Is that something that I should be looking for? I
know from experience that a Japanese engines will outlast most other
engines out there--I've owned two Pontiacs, one Chevy and an old Isuzu
p'up. I treated the p'up like crap (I was young). I never changed the
oil, never did any maintenance on it and it just kept going. Then I
sold it to my brother for next to nothing (family discount) and he
treated worse. The p'up wouldn't die--then he sold it--I've been
impressed by Isuzu ever since. But I babied my 1996 Camaro and my two
Pontiac Fieros and they both crapped out in the time that I saw the
little p'up running around town. I bought a Toyota after that. But as
I've stated before, I don't know anything about Jeep engines. I know
their dependable--it's a Jeep. At the risk of starting a GM vs. Japan
thread--which I don't indend to. By my, and only my observation, I've
been able to trust a Japanese engine even after >100k miles and not be
as succesful with a GM product. It's possible that I've had three
lemons in a row. But that's what my experience has been.

> I would personally get a used Jeep CJ-7, or an older SUV-type (I hate
> the term SUV applied to the following TRUCKS, but...) such as a Chevy
> Blazer, Dodge Ramcharger, or Ford Bronco. All of the above in their

Excellent, this is good to know. Because I see plenty of those types of
vehicles in ads going for < 4k, and that's what I'm looking for.

> With any off road vehicle, a good solid drivetrain is the most
> important thing. If the engine, transmission and axles are all in
> sound mechanical condition, then you have the makings of a good
> reliable off-road vehicle.

How can I verify that the drivetrain is in sound mechanical
condition--what do I look for?

> The cosmetics are of no importance off
> road, and frankly, the worse, the better. Having a well-worn vehicle

I kind of like the old Scouts. I've seen a few of them advertised in
my local Autotrader, but I don't know how dependable the engines or the
drivetrains are?

> By the way, if you spend >$20,000 for a vehicle that'll be used only
> occasionally just to get you further out into the desert, then you'll
> have spent about $15,000+/- too much. My rust-free 1986 Chevy K5
> Blazer cost me around $3800 back in 2002. It was a former Police
> truck--low mileage (around 100k at the time, not bad for a then-16yr
> old truck), solid body, and basic interior (vinyls seats, rubber floor)
> that just screams "get me dirty". I can practically hose it out when
> I'm done...

good, I needed to read about an example of something exactly what I'm
looking for.
Maybe I just need to know specifically what to look for and I'll be
good to go.

thanks, Jon

You might want to pose the Jeep question over on
rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys for lots of feedback on the different
'flavors' available.

I for one love my old Jeeps. My 1986 CJ7 has 180,000 miles on it and is
used as a daily driver. We did a 3000 mile camping trip in it this
summer and it only used one liter of oil. One Cherokee I have has 315K
km on it and the other has 258K km. The 315K one still only uses a
liter of oil between changes. I just got the other and am doing a bit
of rocker panel repair before I put it on the road.

I find them very reliable and take both 'way' back into the deep
Canadian Bush on a regular basis year round. I do bring a few spare
parts and tools, but need them infrequently.

Both of these Jeeps get into places that have ATV drivers with their
jaws hanging open while looking for the 'other' trail we 'must' have
found because no way could we come in the trail they just came in on.
LOL!

The biggest factor when off roading is to always have more than one
vehicle along. Running solo isn't recommended, but we all do it...
Just be prepared!

They aren't the best for gas mileage, but we get about 23 mpg in the CJ7
and well over 25 mpg in the Cherokee on the highway. The Cherokee works
out to about 18 mpg overall for us because my wife uses it as a daily
driver with work only 10 minutes away so it never really warms up to get
better mileage.

When looking for a used Jeep, or any other 4x4 for that matter, I
recommend you find one as stock as possible. The reasoning is any
vehicle with modifications tends to be driven to the limit of those
modifications which causes higher wear usually.

If you check out the links to other albums in my sig line photo album
link, you will see 'lots' of Jeeps off roading.

Here was one fun trip:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4292076845

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)


"nightrider.36" wrote:
>
> Jon R. Pickens wrote:
> > Why don't you trust a Jeep?? That's one of the oldest and most proven
> > designs still in production. Sure, the brand new Wranglers are
>
> I don't trust a used Jeep because I don't know anything about Jeeps, in
> general. Right now, I simply see it as a used car that you're going to
> take out somewhere to further beat the crap out of. But I've never
> purchased a used car before, let alone--a used jeep, I don't know
> anything about them. Maybe it would be good and I just need to know
> what to look for in used jeep. It's just ignorance and my learning
> process, Jon--that's all.
>
> > different than a CJ2A, but the basic design elements are still there.
> > They're simple and functional. Jeep's 4.0L six-cylinder is a solid,
> > proven engine, and most will come with Dana axles.
>
> What's a Dana axle? Is that something that I should be looking for? I
> know from experience that a Japanese engines will outlast most other
> engines out there--I've owned two Pontiacs, one Chevy and an old Isuzu
> p'up. I treated the p'up like crap (I was young). I never changed the
> oil, never did any maintenance on it and it just kept going. Then I
> sold it to my brother for next to nothing (family discount) and he
> treated worse. The p'up wouldn't die--then he sold it--I've been
> impressed by Isuzu ever since. But I babied my 1996 Camaro and my two
> Pontiac Fieros and they both crapped out in the time that I saw the
> little p'up running around town. I bought a Toyota after that. But as
> I've stated before, I don't know anything about Jeep engines. I know
> their dependable--it's a Jeep. At the risk of starting a GM vs. Japan
> thread--which I don't indend to. By my, and only my observation, I've
> been able to trust a Japanese engine even after >100k miles and not be
> as succesful with a GM product. It's possible that I've had three
> lemons in a row. But that's what my experience has been.
>
> > I would personally get a used Jeep CJ-7, or an older SUV-type (I hate
> > the term SUV applied to the following TRUCKS, but...) such as a Chevy
> > Blazer, Dodge Ramcharger, or Ford Bronco. All of the above in their
>
> Excellent, this is good to know. Because I see plenty of those types of
> vehicles in ads going for < 4k, and that's what I'm looking for.
>
> > With any off road vehicle, a good solid drivetrain is the most
> > important thing. If the engine, transmission and axles are all in
> > sound mechanical condition, then you have the makings of a good
> > reliable off-road vehicle.
>
> How can I verify that the drivetrain is in sound mechanical
> condition--what do I look for?
>
> > The cosmetics are of no importance off
> > road, and frankly, the worse, the better. Having a well-worn vehicle
>
> I kind of like the old Scouts. I've seen a few of them advertised in
> my local Autotrader, but I don't know how dependable the engines or the
> drivetrains are?
>
> > By the way, if you spend >$20,000 for a vehicle that'll be used only
> > occasionally just to get you further out into the desert, then you'll
> > have spent about $15,000+/- too much. My rust-free 1986 Chevy K5
> > Blazer cost me around $3800 back in 2002. It was a former Police
> > truck--low mileage (around 100k at the time, not bad for a then-16yr
> > old truck), solid body, and basic interior (vinyls seats, rubber floor)
> > that just screams "get me dirty". I can practically hose it out when
> > I'm done...
>
> good, I needed to read about an example of something exactly what I'm
> looking for.
> Maybe I just need to know specifically what to look for and I'll be
> good to go.
>
> thanks, Jon

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:27:48 -0500, Mike Romain <[email protected]>
wrote:

>The biggest factor when off roading is to always have more than one
>vehicle along. Running solo isn't recommended, but we all do it...
>Just be prepared!


VERY sound advise!!!!!!
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com

Many of the older 4x4s are reliable if you remember to maintain their weak
points like belts, hoses, filters and wiring. Jeeps, Scouts, Broncos,
Blazers and pickups were built very tough. You can buy a used '60s through
'80s for a few thousand dollars, put another thousand or so into to have a
really reilable rig. However, if you go that route then the rig becomes the
hobby because you are always finding something you want to improve. I know;
I bought a '78 Scout for $2800 for the same reason you have, thinking I
would keep it pretty much the way it was...5 years and about an additional
$6000 and it is a great rig.

For my money something with a soft top is preferable. It's pretty fun to
cruz through the desert with the top on (for shade), but the side windows
removed or through the forest with the top off. I think next time I will go
with a jeep so I can fold down the front window.

"nightrider.36" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Jon R. Pickens wrote:
>> Why don't you trust a Jeep?? That's one of the oldest and most proven
>> designs still in production. Sure, the brand new Wranglers are
>
> I don't trust a used Jeep because I don't know anything about Jeeps, in
> general. Right now, I simply see it as a used car that you're going to
> take out somewhere to further beat the crap out of. But I've never
> purchased a used car before, let alone--a used jeep, I don't know
> anything about them. Maybe it would be good and I just need to know
> what to look for in used jeep. It's just ignorance and my learning
> process, Jon--that's all.
>
>> different than a CJ2A, but the basic design elements are still there.
>> They're simple and functional. Jeep's 4.0L six-cylinder is a solid,
>> proven engine, and most will come with Dana axles.
>
> What's a Dana axle? Is that something that I should be looking for? I
> know from experience that a Japanese engines will outlast most other
> engines out there--I've owned two Pontiacs, one Chevy and an old Isuzu
> p'up. I treated the p'up like crap (I was young). I never changed the
> oil, never did any maintenance on it and it just kept going. Then I
> sold it to my brother for next to nothing (family discount) and he
> treated worse. The p'up wouldn't die--then he sold it--I've been
> impressed by Isuzu ever since. But I babied my 1996 Camaro and my two
> Pontiac Fieros and they both crapped out in the time that I saw the
> little p'up running around town. I bought a Toyota after that. But as
> I've stated before, I don't know anything about Jeep engines. I know
> their dependable--it's a Jeep. At the risk of starting a GM vs. Japan
> thread--which I don't indend to. By my, and only my observation, I've
> been able to trust a Japanese engine even after >100k miles and not be
> as succesful with a GM product. It's possible that I've had three
> lemons in a row. But that's what my experience has been.
>
>> I would personally get a used Jeep CJ-7, or an older SUV-type (I hate
>> the term SUV applied to the following TRUCKS, but...) such as a Chevy
>> Blazer, Dodge Ramcharger, or Ford Bronco. All of the above in their
>
> Excellent, this is good to know. Because I see plenty of those types of
> vehicles in ads going for < 4k, and that's what I'm looking for.
>
>> With any off road vehicle, a good solid drivetrain is the most
>> important thing. If the engine, transmission and axles are all in
>> sound mechanical condition, then you have the makings of a good
>> reliable off-road vehicle.
>
> How can I verify that the drivetrain is in sound mechanical
> condition--what do I look for?
>
>> The cosmetics are of no importance off
>> road, and frankly, the worse, the better. Having a well-worn vehicle
>
> I kind of like the old Scouts. I've seen a few of them advertised in
> my local Autotrader, but I don't know how dependable the engines or the
> drivetrains are?
>
>> By the way, if you spend >$20,000 for a vehicle that'll be used only
>> occasionally just to get you further out into the desert, then you'll
>> have spent about $15,000+/- too much. My rust-free 1986 Chevy K5
>> Blazer cost me around $3800 back in 2002. It was a former Police
>> truck--low mileage (around 100k at the time, not bad for a then-16yr
>> old truck), solid body, and basic interior (vinyls seats, rubber floor)
>> that just screams "get me dirty". I can practically hose it out when
>> I'm done...
>
> good, I needed to read about an example of something exactly what I'm
> looking for.
> Maybe I just need to know specifically what to look for and I'll be
> good to go.
>
> thanks, Jon
>

My friend really wants to go to Salton City, so I guess that's where we're
going. Don't know the exact location, he's leading this time.

"nightrider.36" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ed, where will you guys go camping out there? Leonids!! that sounds
> intense--it's a good light show, I've seen it a few times--once out in
> the Mojave.
>
> The thing with the justification is this--and granted, this may just be
> me being ignorant of the 4x4 lifestyle so give me some slack there...
>
> It seems like I'd be paying for two or three vehicles. My commuter
> vehicle, my wife's commuter and now a 4x4 (toy) vehicle. So wouldn't I
> be paying insurance on the 4x4? registration? and maybe more payments
> for a dependable off-road vehicle? I have a good job and not
> destitute, I can afford a new jeep or something similar. But it just
> seems like an unwise use of finances for something I'm not going to use
> daily. Or is it one of those things where that's the cost of having fun
> and I should just suck it up--I can. I just need to know if there are
> more frugal alternatives.
>
> All I want to do is more interesting hiking and not 4x4 rock crawling.
> Jeeps are more expensive (>$20,000) than I'd like to spend on this
> hobby and I don't trust a used Jeep--or should I?
>
>
>> 2) Justify the vehicle on how often you go to places where you will
>> need/want the extra capability to either drive into or out of your
>> choosen
>> destination. I own 2 4x4 vehicles for different purposes. I justified
>> the
>> purchase of an economical daily driver buy comparing the purchase cost
>> against the improved fuel mileage of said daily driver.
>>
>> 4) If you are new to 4x4 adventures, look for local clubs. A friend and
>> I
>> are going to either Salton City or Anza Borrego Saturday, November 18 and
>> staying for a few days to watch the Leonid meteor shower. If you reply
>> to
>> my e-mail address before then maybe you can join us and see what it's
>> like.
>>
>

The best advise that any of these guys could have given you, based on what you have said, would be for you to stay out of the desert. No offence, but off roading is no joke.... if you don't know your vehicle and how to handle it you have no business off road. Driving a car and driving a 4x4 off road are totally different. If you don't know how to pull your rig out of a slide it can land upside down and kill you! If you don't know how to drive in sand, water, mud, and over rocks you will end up with a broke down rig and be a very long way from home, and out of range of cell towers. If you feel a need to get out into the desert than find a good guide and save yourself the money on a 4x4 and maybe even your life.

Just as a side note: In the U.S. a 4x4 has to be shifted in and out of two and four wheel drive. All wheel drive is always in all wheel drive, no shifting in and out (landrovers and subarus) Traction contol is when an on board computer tells what wheels to be under power based on traction and road conditions.