HELP!! P38 won't start after attempted theft

Firstly, hello! I'm new to this forum and landrovers.. I'm hoping some of you guys can shed a little light on my mystery....

The story is.. This landie was an attempted theft, it has a gas conversion and has not ran on petrol for some time (The prev owner suggested a suspected fuel pump issue).

Now, i've replaced the column and drivers side door lock, the previous owner also reported that they had trouble with the key fob.

At the moment it sparks, but won't fire the injectors or power the fuel pump, i think this is due to the immobiliser rather than the fuel pump...

when you lock it with the key, the red security led blinks and then slowly flashes indicating that the immobiliser is armed, when you unlock it with the key, the light stops flashing, is this normal?

The key fob does not work (Light flashes, won't resynchronise using the push button and lock / unlock method)

I have tried the eka procedure but this hasn't helped (No injector signal yet), when you lock it with the key it flashes the indicator every time you turn the key, but it doesn't when you unlock it, i suspect a dodgy switch.. but.. in the owners manual it says the red security led should be flashing throughout the procedure indicating that the alarm is still armed... which it sdoesn't, it only flashed when it is locked...

Are these vehicles OBD compliant? I can borrow a code reader if they are..

The only other information is that it ran fine on Gas before the attempted theft but not on petrol, There's something wrong with the gas kit (The change over switch was dammaged by the amateur car theives) - either way it needs to run on petrol as well as gas..


So... what are your thoughts??

Cheers

What!!!
Someone tried to rob a P38!

I thought that it was common knowledge that the things don't start half time with the flippin key, let alone without!


As regards your problem, I'd say you neeed some one like Irish Rover or Rick the Pick to give your BECM a good seeing to. The immobiliser is tied to the BECM so if you just put a column lock off a scrappie into yours without the BECM from that car you're goosed.

SpudH said:

What!!!
Someone tried to rob a P38!

I thought that it was common knowledge that the things don't start half time with the flippin key, let alone without!


As regards your problem, I'd say you neeed some one like Irish Rover or Rick the Pick to give your BECM a good seeing to. The immobiliser is tied to the BECM so if you just put a column lock off a scrappie into yours without the BECM from that car you're goosed.

Click to expand...

How? The columns have a fairly standard key switch - the rest of the electrics were just swapped from the old to new column, the key blades can be swapped meaning the old remote will fit the new barrel..... From what I can make out there's no way the BECM should know the column's been changed....... unless i've missed something?

Just to add, this is a 95 RRP38... No passive immobilisation, just a key in detection switch

When you say you swapped the electrics, how did you swap over the copper ring around the barrel?

SpudH said:

When you say you swapped the electrics, how did you swap over the copper ring around the barrel?

Click to expand...

There isn't one, the 95 P38's weren't fitted with this feature - assuming you mean the exciter ring which asks the key for it's code before allowing the vehicle to start..

On 95 P38's there is just a key in detection switch, which is literally just a switch (The old barrel was smashed to bits so plain to see).

The exciter ring was fitted from 96 onwards...... so as far as i can tell the BECM shouldn't know the difference between the 2 columns, everything else except the ignition switch was swapped over.

Silly question... are all the fuses ok and do you here any relays under the bonnet when the key is turned, do you get a full set of ignition lights as normal. the toe rag who broke in may have damaged more than you can see.

OBD compliant?... yes that are under the passangers foot well near the center consel.

when you enter the EKA do you do this how it says in the book with the 4 turns to the left first as this enters it into EKA mode

dougdotcom said:

OBD compliant?... yes that are under the passangers foot well near the center consel.

Click to expand...

I think that only post 2000 are OBD compliant (they all have an OBD socket). And even then just for statutory stuff.


I didn't know the pre 96's didn't have the exciter ring, but yes that's what I was on about. In that case the BECM shouldn't know you've been fiddling with its bits.

The trouble is the BECM can still fall out of synch with lots of bits, BBSguy has posted on here how some of the eproms in the BECM are coming to the end of their shelf life and the data is getting corrupted. My own one lost bits of the code to synch the the key with the RF receiver until Irishrover beat it into submission with that soldering iron of his

You really need to get him or some of the other SM035 junkies to have a poke around inside the BECM

happened me last week somebody was at the door lock had to enter key code and all was ok i thought all p38 had an exciter ring

dougdotcom said:

Silly question... are all the fuses ok and do you here any relays under the bonnet when the key is turned, do you get a full set of ignition lights as normal. the toe rag who broke in may have damaged more than you can see.

OBD compliant?... yes that are under the passangers foot well near the center consel.

when you enter the EKA do you do this how it says in the book with the 4 turns to the left first as this enters it into EKA mode

Click to expand...

It's not a silly question.. so easy to overlook something like this! All the lights come on as they should, the electric windows / blowers / mirrors etc all appear to work as they should. The dash flashes various windows not set alarms and an airbag fault (Already diagnosed this, there's a short in the steering wheel coupling between the 2 airbag wires, new one on its way..)

when entering the EKA code the indicators don't flash on unlocking after the first unlock, so i suspect a dodgy switch...

I now have a door wiring diagram so i'll investigate further after work...

Only other thing worth mentioning is that the immobiliser light stops flashing when you manually unlock it.. is this normal? I expected it would continue to flash if the immobiliser was armed...

I'll do some basic tests with the relays too, all fuses are present, correct and ok - only relay missing is the spare green one..

I appreciate everyone's help, please keep the suggestions coming!

Quick update,

The door switches seem to be working.. from what i can make out there are 3 switches, one operates when the door is open, one operates when the door lock is in the lock or unlock position, and the other operates only in the locked position..

Anyway, when i turn the starter switch to position 2 the CHECK ENGINE light comes on, doesn't this mean that the immobiliser is disabled? It goes off after cranking for a few seconds.. The only thing it does do is wind over and spark!

The key doesn't seem to want to sync, and the EKA code doesn't appear to do anything, when cranking there's no 'Engine disabled' warning, which indicates everything's fine, just no injectors firing or fuel pump operation...

I need to get my code reader back and have a go at reading it, it's a bit hit and miss on pre OBD2 cars though... Anyone got any ideas in the mean time?

dont waste your time with an obd scanner. I can't check for petrol models now but in the diesel the BECM checks an EMS code before sending an 'ok to fire' signal to the diesel ecu. If the code is out of synch the engine will crank all day but never fire.
In all likelyhood the petrol will have the same level of security. You need to get one of the guys with faultmate module SM035 to check it out

SpudH said:

dont waste your time with an obd scanner. I can't check for petrol models now but in the diesel the BECM checks an EMS code before sending an 'ok to fire' signal to the diesel ecu. If the code is out of synch the engine will crank all day but never fire.
In all likelyhood the petrol will have the same level of security. You need to get one of the guys with faultmate module SM035 to check it out

Click to expand...

They do indeed, i've just been doing some reading on the matter... There's a tool available costing about £100 (BECM sync mate).. I'm considering an investment - but apparently the ECM stores a couple of fault codes indicating out of sync if this is the problem, I do have a code reader - just need to get it back! I lent it to my brother a while back, if it can read the ECM it'd be good to know for certain that that's the problem before i shell out £100....

I think the eka / immobiliser / keyfob not working's a bit of a red herring at the moment, the security light and check engine appear to induicate that the immobiliser is disarmed when the doors are manually unlocked. If thats the case i'll worry about that once it's running!

or bcem in alarmed state-irishrover can advise

your new key is not coded to the becm so you do not have key remote to becm syncronisation.
the key needs reprograming and then the imobiliser needs to be resynced to the becm and all should be well

also all modles p38a were obd2 compliant for the american market and uk models were too

vougese39 said:

your new key is not coded to the becm so you do not have key remote to becm syncronisation.
the key needs reprograming and then the imobiliser needs to be resynced to the becm and all should be well

also all modles p38a were obd2 compliant for the american market and uk models were too

Click to expand...

This is what i was thinking, but a bit more digging is casting doubt into my mind...

people are saying that when GEMS is talking to the BECM the check engine light comes on at key on, which mine does.... Does this mean GEMS is talking to the BECM? I think i've figured out what the B really stands for, and it's not body.

vougese39 said:

your new key is not coded to the becm so you do not have key remote to becm syncronisation.
the key needs reprograming and then the imobiliser needs to be resynced to the becm and all should be well

also all modles p38a were obd2 compliant for the american market and uk models were too

Click to expand...

1) Keys cannot be "re-programmed" on the P38, they can only be ordered for the vehicle lock set from HUF.
2)If the P38 is OBD2 compliant, Blackbox Solutions would be out of business and Storey Wilson would not be flogging himself to an early grave producing diagnostics for it, any cheap scanner would do the job. The connector is OBD compliant and some of the ECU's are, the BECM is not as far as I'm aware.

if eka is not working u may find the drivers door catch maybe faulty was on mine an no matter how many times i entered the code it wouldnt work

I discussed it with the dog earlier, he wasn't much help but he looked like he was paying more attention than the missuz.

Anyway, i was speaking to a colleague about this, who suggested checking the fuel pump, he says if it has a pressure switch / sensor on the rail it most probably won't fire the injectors unless the right fuel pressure is there. Since there is none, this would explain it...

I swapped the starter relay and the fuel pump relay around as they're the same part number, it still cranked so i guess the relay is fine, now, when i key on the fuel pump relay does definately engage, but the pump doesn't run...

The fuse is fine so it's a tank off job and check the fuel pump next! It'll be the weekend before i get a chance to do that anyway.

I had a look and its hard to tell without dismantling if there is a pressure switch, since there's obviously something wrong with the fuel pump i figure might as well fix it first.

Anyone know if they do have a pressure switch, and if low pressure would stop the injectors firing?

You can check the pump by dropping the fuel filter and turning the ignition on, with a suitable container to catch the diesel if the pump works. It need a re-synch or the BECM reset, it is not common rail injection so there is no pressure switch.