Freelander 1 Auto 1.8

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pscan.eu said:
The IRD also bolts to the block and sump at the other end of it to the gearbox, doesn't it?
Does that mean that a 1.8 K series block and/or sump is different to an MG Rover one?
I want to mock all this up on the floor somewhere so can I use any old MG Rover block or do I need a Freelander one?
Basically the relation of the IRD to the block is fixed by that mount onto the block, so the relationship of gearbox to block has to be adjusted to respect that.
The other "unknown" is whether the crank sensor on the Freelander Jatco is in the same place as it is on a Rover 75 Jatco box; I hope so.
Click to expand...
The RH end of the IRD bolts to a bracket, which is bolted to the block. This can be modified to suit once the IRD has been joined to the gearbox, as it's only used for support, not location like at the gearbox end of the IRD, so you need to get the box in the correct place first, then modify the engine and engine mounts to suit the gearbox. You'll need the correct drive shafts for the Jatco, but they only need to be standard V6/TD4 shafts, nothing more complicated than that.

Look at Ali's Freelander EV conversion thread, as it has information and pictures of getting the gearbox in the correct place for the IRD and drive shafts to work as per the factory setup.
 
GrumpyGel said:
Hopefully, the K mount places the block face that the adapter bolts to in the same place as the KV6
Click to expand...

yes there are some assumptions in here that could cause me some serious problems if I'm wrong.
In my mind the position of the IRD and gearbox is fixed because of the drive shafts and prop shaft. So I'm going to be using the standard gearbox mount.
The position of the block is fixed because it's bolted to the IRD, which is fixed.
So the only variable left is the relationship of K series block to Jatco gearbox.
I have just assumed that it will be right, but it might not be.
The torque converter can't move, because input splines and the crank sensor.
The flexplate/flywheel starter ring can't move in relationship to the gearbox either because the starter motor is bolted to the gearbox.
The only factor left, and therefore the one that I have to adjust how the bell housing mates to the block and whether the flexplate still aligns with the end of the K series crank.
Still, it's just metal. A flexplate can be modified. A bell housing can by cut down or built up again. Hopefully.
 
Nodge68 said:
it's only used for support, not location like at the gearbox end of the IRD, so you need to get the box in the correct place first, then modify the engine and engine mounts to suit the gearbox. You'll need the correct drive shafts for the Jatco, but they only need to be standard V6/TD4 shafts, nothing more complicated than that.
Click to expand...
This is also true, and helpful.
On the driveshafts, what is the different between K series and TD4/V6 driveshafts?
The IRD is the same right? so maybe it's the CV joint end that's different?
 
pscan.eu said:
yes there are some assumptions in here that could cause me some serious problems if I'm wrong.
In my mind the position of the IRD and gearbox is fixed because of the drive shafts and prop shaft. So I'm going to be using the standard gearbox mount.
The position of the block is fixed because it's bolted to the IRD, which is fixed.
So the only variable left is the relationship of K series block to Jatco gearbox.
I have just assumed that it will be right, but it might not be.
The torque converter can't move, because input splines and the crank sensor.
The flexplate/flywheel starter ring can't move in relationship to the gearbox either because the starter motor is bolted to the gearbox.
The only factor left, and therefore the one that I have to adjust how the bell housing mates to the block and whether the flexplate still aligns with the end of the K series crank.
Still, it's just metal. A flexplate can be modified. A bell housing can by cut down or built up again. Hopefully.
Click to expand...
You are quite right in using the factory gearbox mount. This puts all the important components like IRD, drive shafts and propshaft in the correct location.
You'll then need to make an adaptation plate to join the gearbox to the engine, with whatever combination of parts to get the torque converter to attach to the crankshaft. Once the engine and gearbox are built up and connected so they will work together, you'll then need to install it in the correct location in the engine bay, using the box mount as the datum point. The engine mount and lower tie bar will then need to be made to support and locate the engine end of the assembly in place.
 
The mechanical stuff will have to wait for a while. I need to concentrate on getting the electronics to work first. I think that I need to build a CAN gateway to intercept / reinsert the throttle idle switch signals. It's easier to do this whilst the existing ECU still works and that means that the manual box has to stay there for a while yet. I can make a Rover 75 ECU work with the manual gearbox, but I don't think I can get a Freelander K series to work with the Jatco crank sensor. So the manual box stays in for now.
 
pscan.eu said:
This is also true, and helpful.
On the driveshafts, what is the different between K series and TD4/V6 driveshafts?
The IRD is the same right? so maybe it's the CV joint end that's different?
Click to expand...
From memory the drive shaft for the 1.8 are different lengths, to compensate for the slightly different dimensions of the PG1 gearbox. Basically the fitted length of PG1/IRD are different on the petrol manual. However as you'll be using a Jatco auto box, you'll need the drive shafts to suit the auto instead, as the fitted length of the Jatco/IRD will be the same as the standard auto setup.
 
Nodge68 said:
From memory the drive shaft for the 1.8 are different lengths, to compensate for the slightly different dimensions of the PG1 gearbox. Basically the fitted length of PG1/IRD are different on the petrol manual. However as you'll be using a Jatco auto box, you'll need the drive shafts to suit the auto instead, as the fitted length of the Jatco/IRD will be the same as the standard auto setup.
Click to expand...
For some reason I didn't take the driveshaft when I took the V6 Jatco.
Anyway the vehicle owner says he'll keep them for me.
I also want to go back and remove the entire wiring loom and cut the sills off because mine are rusty and his are pristine.
 
pscan.eu said:
For some reason I didn't take the driveshaft when I took the V6 Jatco.
Anyway the vehicle owner says he'll keep them for me.
I also want to go back and remove the entire wiring loom and cut the sills off because mine are rusty and his are pristine.
Click to expand...
Yes, get the drive shafts, and the KV6 engine mounts and lower tie bar, and front section of the propshaft.
One of sills is dented, presumably by whoever flipped the vehicle.
 
The propshaft is already on my wife's TD4. Are they different? I'm getting a vibration under hard acceleration. Is that why?
 
pscan.eu said:
The propshaft is already on my wife's TD4. Are they different? I'm getting a vibration under hard acceleration. Is that why?
Click to expand...
From memory, the K series manual and auto box models are slightly different lengths, so it's possible the TD4 props are slightly different to.
 
pscan.eu said:
so the IRD is not in exactly the same place on all of the cars. I need to be careful
Click to expand...
It's close, but there's definitely a difference on the 1.8 that is large enough to use different drive shafts. From memory the 1.8 drive shafts are slightly thinner too, but my memory could be failing me on that.

As long as you mount the gearbox on the correct mount for that gearbox i.e. the automatic gearbox mount is used for the auto box, then all you need to do is keep with that for the other components like front prop and drive shafts, then it'll all fit together just fine.
 
Nodge68 said:
It's close, but there's definitely a difference on the 1.8 that is large enough to use different drive shafts. From memory the 1.8 drive shafts are slightly thinner too, but my memory could be failing me on that.

As long as you mount the gearbox on the correct mount for that gearbox i.e. the automatic gearbox mount is used for the auto box, then all you need to do is keep with that for the other components like front prop and drive shafts, then it'll all fit together just fine.
Click to expand...
I was wondering why the K and TD4 "drive shafts" would be different lengths. I can understand why the LH drive shaft could/would be different as the gearboxes may be/are different where they mate to. However, are the RH shafts different lengths?

If they are, then the position of the IRD is different dependent on vehicle.

I don't know if this makes the task of mating auto to K easier (because exact positioning of IRD is not so important) or more difficult (because (more) bespoke bits will need to be made).

I always assumed that the adapter plate bolted between engine and bell housing. This being the case, the standard K bracket for the IRD (support) should fit as-is but may need adapting for the tie rod. If it bolts between bell housing and gearbox, conversion must presumably become a lot more difficult.
 
GrumpyGel said:
The other end does bolt to the block. It is done with a bracket though, ie IRD bolts to bracket (in a circular type affair around the end) and the bracket extends to block and bolts to it - IIRC, the lower engine mount/tie rod also bolts to this bracket.

So long as there are some places to screw bolts to on the block, you could presumably make something up, but it'd be a PITA to do so I'd have thought.

Think I got this right. Its a while since I touched them, but pretty sure the K and L series brackets were actually quite different. I think 1 of them may have actually been 2 brackets joined together.

I'm wondering about mounts for the engine and gearbox. Presumably the combinations of K, KV6 and TD4 engine mounts, combined with mounts for the Jatco, PG1 and Getrag gearboxes align the adaptor plates (that the IRD bolts to) in the same position left-right and front-back in the engine bay so that the IRD is positioned for the driveshafts and propshaft to fit properly. There is though, no K/Jatco combination of mounts. Hopefully, the K mount places the block face that the adapter bolts to in the same place as the KV6.
Click to expand...
I think your right GG, The K series bracket is very different to a TD4 bracket.
In my case I am using the standard Freelander gearbox mount so I know that the passenger side of the engine bay is in the correct location and height. I'm also using the standard bracket and lower tie bar bolted to the IRD in it's normal position so the tie bar is in the correct position. I can't remember if I had to adjust adapt it some but it is mostly standard. Only the driver side upper mount is fully fabricated by me.
 
Two more problems to overcome.

1. The crank sensor tooth pattern for the V6 appears to be totally different to the Rover 75 1.8 auto, therefore I'm gonna have to find a Rover 75 one (torque converter) and hope that it engages with the V6 Jatco internals and oil seal okay.
2. A 1.8 auto flywheel/flexplate just turned up in the post and it's completely different to the V6 one. The starter ring is a different size so it won't work with the V6 starter motor that I have, and, the bolt pattern onto the crank is a different size as well. I think that I'll have to remove the centre part from the 1.8 flexplate and weld it to the centre of the V6 flexplate. It's probably best to wait to find a torque converter first though.
 
1. Thought the crank sensor reads the flywheel or flex plate not the TC.
2. Can you not retain the 1.8 starter in the original position with the bellhousing modified to accept it.
3. Seems odd that the crank is different on the auto to the manual. Certainly the TD4 is the same for auto and manual. Can the 1.8 auto flex plate be redrilled ?
 
1. The MEMS3 from an auto 1.8 uses a different type of sensor to the ones with a PG1 gearbox. They use a sensor with a three pin connector and it detects teeth that are on the outside of the torque converter.
2. Maybe, maybe not. It's a totally different bellhousing.
3. It's not that an auto crank is different, it's that a V6 crank is different to a 1.8 crank. If I use a V6 starter motor then I need a V6 flexplate, but that will need modification to fit a 1.8 crank.
 
Hopefully this is going smoothly Philip? I’d get the gearbox/driveshafts in the right location and worry about the engine mount later. Remember too that there are a plethora of K16 engine mount designs for different vehicles - so if the Freelander one doesn’t line up, then an engine mount for a different Rover may do the job!

The R75 auto is a Jatco - so the flex plate/starter arrangement from that car should work here?
 
Also, I am studying the differences in the air con ECU arrangements as one uses a tri state switch and the Freelander a pressure switch. Will report back. If we can crack a Rover 75 ECU into a Freelander then the world opens up! Turbo here we come !

Yes Rob, I wondered why not use the R75 auto components with suitable mod for crank sensor.
 
The R75 1.8 starter motor ring is definitely smaller than the Freelander V6 one, so the I think that starter motor placement is probably different. Yes they are both Jatco gearboxes but there are many differences. Fortunately the bit that I need to be the same, I think is the same; and that's the electronics. At least I hope so.
 
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