and Daisy STILL won't start!

Still not starting.

Daisy is an April 2004 D2 TD5 enjoying a second career after emigrating from the UK to Australia. She has developed a fault where, without warning, she loses all power. Severe cranking of the engine usually persuades her back into life but that life lasts anything between 500 yds and 50 miles
Her clutch and gearbox (long story) were changed last March and all seemed well.
I clock up 800km (500miles) a week, nearly all of it at motorway speeds (110km/70mph).
When she was running properly, Daisy was returning 10l/100km (almost 30mpg) and max speed is in accordance with the manual. She has 270,000km on the clock. The only engine work that she has had is:

1. 2 new injector looms (2007 & 2015)
2. New fuel pressure regulator seals (2014) and there is no smell of diesel now
3. New radiator and top hose (2013)
4. New Starter (2013)

She is religiously serviced (new fluids and filters) every 10,000 km (6,000miles) and this is the first fault she has ever had that means she has failed to complete a journey.

Dear Landy Zoners, I have now carried out the following Maintops on Daisy (2004 TD5); she still doesn't want to start and if she does start she cuts out soon after:

1. New fuel pump
2. Disconnected the MAF sensor - didn't help
3. Reconnected MAF sensor - still didn't help
2. New fuel filter
3. New air bleed and non return valves at the fuel filter
4. New crankcase sensor
5. Cleaned both ECU plugs
6. Cleaned the injector harness (this is only 9 months old anyway and I was losing all 5 cylinders at once, not one at a time as per a harness failure

I have not done the injector seals yet but there is no diesel smell in the oil and the dipstick level has not moved up. I live in Australia and it's summer now so I don't think it's glow plugs. My friends, I need this car working asap and can't wait any longer for parts from the UK. I am about to run up the white flag and hand her to the local dealer... unless you know different. Is there ANYTHING else, that I can fix quickly, that it could be?

David

Another obvious-presumably she spins over fast while cranking and ALSO volts does not drop below 10.5 volts while cranking (I believe ecu gives out below 10.5 volts)

biolandy said:

Another obvious-presumably she spins over fast while cranking and ALSO volts does not drop below 10.5 volts while cranking (I believe ecu gives out below 10.5 volts)

Click to expand...

Still not obvious. She spins like a hotpoint on fast cycle (and the timing chain ain't broke) and the volts are well above 10.5. or at least were until I flattened the battery getting her back into the garage on the starter motor.

Hi David
Did you check the wiring from the CPS when you fitted the new one?
But it does sound more like a fueling issue.
The oil level may not rise even when the injector seals need doing, if the copper washers have any leaks it will screw up the starting/running.
If the seals are the originals, at that mileage they are well past their sell by date!
Do the seals. Also have you plugged a diagnostic into it?
Mark

try the bleed procedure on the key, if it has been dry you sometimes need to do this, i forget how but it is on here!

I know this dont directly help your cause.
But i bought a Hawkey best thing i ever did at £250
You need to get plugged in, it may be something dead simple you are missing.
Good luck with her and let us know

Mark Ormond said:

I know this dont directly help your cause.
But i bought a Hawkey best thing i ever did at £250
You need to get plugged in, it may be something dead simple you are missing..
Good luck with her and let us know

Click to expand...

Hi Mark
I think it will soon be time for me to man up and get a Hawkeye and learn to use it

I think there may have been a bit of progress but I am not sure... Having changed the crank case sensor without effect, I changed the air bleed valve and fitted a non return valve on the fuel filter. I already had them and there seemed nothing to lose by fitting them. Still no change and by now the battery had had enough.

This morning I pushed Daisy out of the garage and stole a jump start from SWMBO's mini. Extended cranking got Daisy going and the engine ticked over for about 5 mins before conking out. It took another jump to get her going but this time she didn't choke and I left her ticking away for an hour. I then got brave and clocked up about 20 miles driving around the block. She has been sat on the drive for about 4 hours and has just started in the button.

If she is reluctant to start in the morning then she is off to the local dealer but what if she starts on the button? Have I fixed it? It is looking more and more like a fuel snag.

Wahay result! I reckon you are sorted-perhaps you were air locked somewhere.

biolandy said:

Wahay result! I reckon you are sorted-perhaps you were air locked somewhere.

Click to expand...

Possibly airlocked - tomorrow will tell. Oddly enough, if Daisy sparks up like a good 'un that makes things more difficult, the drive from Sydney to Canberra is all motorway but a lot of it is in the back of beyond.

Just a thought: When I was going for the crank sensor, at first I thought my best way in was from above past the fuel pressure regulator. I detached the fuel feed and return lines and the pressure sensor and I am beginning to wonder if I changed something when I reattached the lines. I will know in the morning, the slightest hesitation on starting and she's off to the shop.

So lets hope you have sorted her.
Ok so Hawkeye cost me £250 and easy to use.
If you had one it may of paid for its self on this one job

I think she may be sorted - almost. The following morning she started easily so instead of the tow truck I was able to drive to the dealers. They ran a full diagnostic check and could find no error codes at all(?). The only defect they found was no shim between the crankshaft sensor and the bellhousing. It must have been lost when the gearbox was removed because it certainly wasn't there when I changed the sensor - while I am at it there was no O-ring on the existing sensor either. I fitted the shim (I am getting good at crankshaft sensor changes), did a test start and all was well. The next day we set off for Canberra (about 180 miles from Sydney and mostly open motorway driving). All was spot on for the first 200km and then I experienced rough running and loss of power. The engine didn't die and after a few minutes ticking over was back on the money, I even tried dipping the clutch, killing the engine and bump starting her at 110kph (into 4th gear) and that also cleared the fault. I had injector harness issues a few years ago and this felt like the same thing and nothing like the total shut down I had been getting. Since Monday she hasn't travelled more than 30km in one trip but neither has she missed a beat and starting is still spot on so I think that has cleared the starting and running-at-all issue. It may be that I didn't get all the oil out of the injector loom and/or red ECU plug and that the cleaner I used has dissolved some oily residue and that is getting in the way. I spoke with the local Canberra LR Dealer (these guys are all proper LR enthusiasts, most of them drive Series Land Rovers!) and they suggested that the EGR valve may need cleaning. This makes sense because it never has been cleaned and Daisy is getting on a bit. I am going to order a new injector harness to be on the safe side and clean out the EGR.

What Have I learned? LOTS!

A TD5 suddenly conking out or not starting is well documented. The finger usually points at the fuel pump or the injector seals. I could smell no diesel in the oil which I know does not completely rule out the seals so they remain potentially suspect, especially at Daisy's Age. Collapsing fuel lines are also often mentioned, not sure how to diagnose them but Daisy's now easy starting I think rules them out. I changed the fuel pump as a first step and that was jumping to the wrong conclusion. It is the most expensive component between the fuel tank and the piston and needs the removal of a fair bit of trim (always a nightmare to put back correctly) to get at. Also, having driven Daisy in the UK, Europe and Australia, the strainer was as clean as a whistle.

If you have access to diagnostics I would use them.

Use the various forums but be aware that some symptoms, such as this one, may have multiple potential causes and that your Land Rover may be suffering from more than one of them, especially if she is getting on. Something may have failed and other items may be on the way out. Fixing one issue may simply highlight snags elsewhere.

In Daisy's case, the ECU plug, crankshaft sensor, fuel filter and filter air bleed and non return valves are cheap and easy to replace (or clean). Same goes for the injector harness. Only one of my replies mentioned the EGR valve and that is getting a clean asap.

So what got Daisy going? I am not sure. Changing the sensor and the fuel valves changed nothing until I hooked her up to a jump start. I think this implies that even a battery and starter that sound good may not be producing enough poke to start the engine properly. Next time I have difficulty starting, after making the repair, I will back up the Land Rover with a jump start to rule out a soggy battery.

As for the new fault, I am again stumped. The injector loom was changed last year but disturbing it as I have may have induced a fault. Last time I had a dodgy loom the symptoms were the same as these new ones but more frequent. I will clean the EGR valve and loom again this weekend.

Other lessons learned:
1. Add cleaning the red ECU plug to your service routine.
2. Don't jump to conclusions and start changing parts without needing to.
3. There is a wealth of knowledge in our forums but remember that your fault may have more than one potential cause so what worked for another may not work for you.
4. That said, there is a lot of knowledge and support in this forum.
5. Finally; unless you are a professional mechanic, the chances are that you will encounter a given issue only once in your stewardship of your Land Rover ( I am, for instance, quite good at changing rear diffs having changed Daisy's, don't expect to have to do it again any time soon but just know that someone is facing the same problem I did 2 years ago). Once you solve a problem, do a write up for the forum.

Dont kill the engine at 110 kph YOU WILL KILL THE TURBO oil supply is cut off and she running at scary speed and temp

When you changed the fuel pump the one in the tank, did it come out black by any chance. reliable source told me it can be sign of injector washers leaking it allows carbon into fuel which ends up in tank is this true not sure but i can see the theory.
Air filter I guess very dusty out there, if you dont change it regular dust can get through at upset the MAF sensor.
But you did say no faults showing.
Take a look at it very delicate element clean with care i do mine with electrical terminal cleaner / aerosol

Mark Ormond said:

Dont kill the engine at 110 kph YOU WILL KILL THE TURBO oil supply is cut off and she running at scary speed and temp

Click to expand...

Hi Mark, I got away with it this time but won't be doing that again. The old fuel pump came out clean. The air filter gets changed every 10,000km, since coming out here it is visibly dirtier coming out than when we were in the UK but not massively so.

One thing you've not mentioned regarding the red plug and its oiling up.
I have heard of cases where the original oil problem has run further into the ECU than just the plug. It might be worth doing a check of the inside of the ECU and if there is any oil in there, clean it out with something like IPA (Iso-Propyl Alcohol), or some other cleaning fluid which doesn't leave a residue.

Brian

brian47 said:

One thing you've not mentioned regarding the red plug and its oiling up.
I have heard of cases where the original oil problem has run further into the ECU than just the plug. It might be worth doing a check of the inside of the ECU and if there is any oil in there, clean it out with something like IPA (Iso-Propyl Alcohol), or some other cleaning fluid which doesn't leave a residue.

Click to expand...

I will have a look inside the ECU this weekend.

brian47 said:

One thing you've not mentioned regarding the red plug and its oiling up.
I have heard of cases where the original oil problem has run further into the ECU than just the plug. It might be worth doing a check of the inside of the ECU and if there is any oil in there, clean it out with something like IPA (Iso-Propyl Alcohol), or some other cleaning fluid which doesn't leave a residue.

Click to expand...

Hi Brian

Frustrations continue. I cleaned out the Red ECU plug a few weeks ago and thought that had nailed the problem but it hadn't. I have just spent the evening removing and cleaning the EGR Valve, while I was at it I checked the Red plug and it was as clean as a whistle. I opened the computer and there wasn't a trace of any oil at all. I took her for a drive and it all felt good, until I dropped a cylinder. That does it! Apparently the injector harness was new last year (the garage offered to change it while sorting some minor engine leaks during a gear box change and like a nugget I said yes). Tomorrow I'm changing it myself for a new one. I am in the middle of a house move from Sydney to Canberra and although it's only a 3 hour drive it's not like breaking down on the M5. Once I've changed the harness, the only parts I won't have changed between the fuel tank and the piston crown will be the fuel lines and the injector seals. It's got beyond a joke.

Change the injector copper washers if you go there for the loom cos it seems very like them... (and the o-rings off course just that they dont give you this symptom)