1996 300TDI Trouble starting, then runs without key!

Right, helps if I post this in the right forum. Apparently I'm such a newb I somehow thought I had a TD5

We got it 3 weeks ago, it would sometimes not start when the key was turned. Basicly you would get a single *click* when turned to pos.3 but after 5-20 minutes of fiddling it would eventually start right up. I thought it was the immobilizer.

Anyway it did this again yesterday, then it finally tried to start to turn over, after a few seconds (about 5) it still hadn't gone so I released the key. The engine stopped trying to turn over, but something in the engine bay kept going. It had to be something electrical, but wasn't the fan. It sounded like a small electric motor running quite quickly, kinda like a small hoover or washing machine on spin. After about 5 minutes (of me fumbling around trying to find the battery) it simple spun down, as if it ran out of juice.

Then a mechanic friend came to have a look, after he started it (first time on the button no troubles) it continued to run even with the key removed! He had to pull the negative off the batt to stop it.

Today I decided to see if I could get her off the drive so we can get the Peugeot out since the landy isn't going anywhere soon. I decided I'd record a couple of videos to help with diagnosing the problem.

Here is the first vid: Land Rover Defender 110 300TDi fails to start. - YouTube
Makes a painful noise near the end of it

Left her for a few minutes and had another go: Land Rover Defender 110 300TDi Starts - YouTube
Starts reasonably, usually she would be running quicker than that. Had her running for about 5 minutes while we backed her out of the drive, when I turned the key she kept running, even after removing the key!

Quick vid of the engine while running: Land Rover Defender 110 TDi Running - YouTube

So, thats the current situation. I had another thread here (http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f50/9...fuses-start-then-runs-without-key-217151.html) which has a bit more info, however I mistakenly thought I had a TD5 so I thought I would do a re-post in the correct section, sorry about that. I did get some good help in that thread, but I'm not sure the advice/answers carry over to a 300TDi.

So thats my current situation, I'd really appreciate any help anyone can offer as I'm not really sure where to start. Perhaps it would be best to check all wires relating to the ignition/starter and makes sure all the earths are good?

Does the ignition stay on? When the key is removed

Sorry I'm quite sure what you mean? The engine remains running, do you mean do the lights/indicators/etc still work even with the key out?

If thats what you mean, I'm not actually sure, didn't think to check that. Should I start her up tomorrow, then remove the key and see what still works even with the key out?

Thanks

Well one thing I would test is the wire to the fuel shutoff (back of pump 1 wire on its own) see if it has power all the time or when key is off then it should not have any power there that would be why it won't stop on the key or bits inside been taken out

Alright had a quick play around today. The ignition all appears to work as it should, for example if i take the keys out and the engine is still running things such as wipers and washer jets do not work, sidelights turn off etc. So the ignition does appear to be working correctly.

If the ignition and such remained on, I'd be blaming a double-pole bulb being fitted somewhere if my research is correct. Since thats not the case (plus no bulbs have been changed) I think you might be on the right path hodgey.

I'm going to go out tomorrow and check what the fuel shutoff solonoid is doing, as after doing more reading (hours and hours of it) it does sound like the solonoid is stuck open, either by constant current or failed open. I hear they are designed to fail shut, but that they've been known to fail open.

Thinking about its older problem, how the starter motor wouldn't engage, I'm also thinking the ignition might be at fault in some way. Since its directly linked to the solenoid and the starter motor it might explain the weird behaviors.

Tried to shut her down by pulling the battery, still kept going! By these engines just want to keep running forever!

Thanks again for your help mates, I'll pop back tomorrow when I've had chance to check the solonoid and such. I think it might also be worth me checking the main relay and fuses? As if they are behaving badly they can also cause the same issues, so I hear.

Pull the wire off the fuel pump it will stop, if it doesn't them the stop bits broke in side it

Take the Steering wheel off and take the LH stalk control off and replace it . (The one with the Hazard switch in it) had exact same problem with my 1st Disco.

Disconnected the solenoid wire, engine keeps going like a champ! Looks like we might have found the problem then. Would also explain why she is taking longer to start, if the solenoid is getting a bit stiff.

redhand, this isn't a Disco its a Defender, though I appreciate the efforts in trying to solve an electrical gremlin I probably should have made it more clear that its a Defender, don't think I actually mentioned it in my post, doh!

Right, just been out and borrowed a 24mil, got the solenoid out. Around the top half of it (where the small nut attaches) the silicon or sealant fell off, also its spring for the return is very squishy. It feels ok mind you, but just very soft, I wouldn't be surprised if it struggled to close off with fuel passing through it. It did activate normally when i connected/disconnect power, but perhaps the added resistance of fuel passing through was just enough to keep it open.

Either way, given its a cheap part which has obvious signs of degrading (the seal) I'm going to go ahead and replace it, seems a safer bet then trying to run it with this one.

Thanks again for the help guys, I'll report back when the new solenoid arrives and let you know how it goes

P.S. Took the bonnet off for easy access, when a clever design that is! Loooaaads of room and light in the engine bay with that off!

Finally got the new solenoid today, have to say it feels identical to the broken one, if anything its a bit squisheyer!

Managed to borrow a 15/16ths spanner from a local garage as after visiting 10+ shops nowhere could sell me one! Everyone stops at 19mm.

Anyway, started fitting the new one and hit a bump, can anyone tell me or show a picture of how far its supposed to screw in? Mine still has 3/4 threads showing but it had gotten tighter to the point where theres no way to get the last threads in.

I could just try starting it, but I don't want it ****ing diesel everywhere, plus what if it just keeps sucking it through and never stops!

it screws al l the way in put you need to be careful as plunger and spring drop out and out of line and may jam

Not read it all but on my 200tdi there is a fuse holder under dash with no fuse in it other day my curiosity got me put one in n she kept running check for that

Also starting test the glow plugs

Ah, oddly enough no, this one doesn't screw all the way in! Cheers for the quick reply and warning about the plunger dropping out though, was nice and careful with it and had no trouble.

For whatever reason the new one (baremach i think) has about 4-5 more threads on it, which was exactly the amount that remains sticking out the housing. So to be safe I think I'll crack it back off a couple of threads, then perhaps use loctite and put it back in.

Either way, works great! She now starts, and more importantly shuts down, at the turn of the key!

Thanks loads for the help guys, been a big help

are you sure its the right one

Well, it was the correct part number on the box, its identical in every way, just has extra threads. I just put it down to some kind of compatibility to make it fit another similar housing from a different make/model?

Also, while she now turns off just dandy, she does not start. To be specific, she WILL start, but is often having the "I'm not starting" grumble where when you turn the key you get a single *click* and then nothing, start motor doesn't even turn over.

On a good note my Haynes finally arrived, unfortunately the only time it mentions the alarm/immobilizer system is how to change the keyfob! So I can't honestly tell if its the start motor, immobilizer, or generic wire gremlins. When she does start its right on the button, no troubles. But when she doesn't, she can do the single click thing for 2 minutes or 20 minutes before eventually starting perfectly.

Another thing is that the central locking is fubar, Haynes did mention the drivers side lock is tied to the alarm/immobilizer so it could even be something awkward like that kicking in the immobilizer. I wish I could find more documentation on it, but there seems to be very little info on alarm/immob from 96 models.

I think my best course of action is to go out and follow the wiring from the starter motor to wherever it leads, see just how intertwined it is with the immob. If it all check out then I think hooking up the starter motor wiring to a bulb and doing some tests are in order, try and find out how/when its getting its current.

Cheers again guys

Sorry for the double post/bumping old thread, I've not had any real time on the internet recently, mostly because I've been spending it on the bloody landy!

On a good note, I think I've solved the problem. Turns out our Defender was fitted with the same alarm/immob/central locking as the model 2 years after, fitted at a proper dealership.

After removing the entire dashboard I found the standard 10AS land rover alarm system, then did some research and discovered that since mine is the model without anything on the fuel shut-off solenoid that it must have a "spider" fitted, luckily the dealership went by-the-book with installation for the most part, so I found the spider in the place it was supposed to be!

Anyway, after a day drilling rivets out to get to the damn thing, I get the circuit board out and look at what was waiting!

http://i.imgur.com/SuP4aJg.jpg

Well, hello there my charred little friend! I'm really pleased to discover this as its the first clear sign I've found on the entire car that said "something is wrong, right here".

So, cleaned off the joints and resoldered all of the relays pins on the unit, refitted it back to the landy and he started up first time, which doesn't actually mean the problem is fixed but at least means the spider is still functional!

Only posting this really in case anyone else has a similar problem and searches through old threads looking for soloutions, better than leaving it unanswered.

Moral of the story: Never assume that because your car is X year that it'll not have stuff fitted from later/previous years. Always take it to bits and confirm it by-eye.

Now all I need to do is fix the water leak at the front end, oil leak in the middle and fuel leak at the back! By land rovers keep you busy

Oh and an honorary mention goes to my good friend the Haynes Manual, which only has a single mention of the entire alarm system, that being how to replace the battery in the keyfob

Thanks again for all of the help everyone, it was much appreciated