Torque Converter Freelander 2

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The issue seems to stem from Land Rover stating the fluid can go 150k. Whereas the gearbox manufacturer states 75k.

This is accurate, but there also needs to be some common sense applied, as no fluid will last 150k, actually 75k is too long, 50k fluid changes is much more sensible, if expensive trouble is to be avoided.

Make sure you change the Haldex fluid and filter, rear diff oil and PTU oil too, as those are all liable to fail, if fluids are left until the LR internal. ;)
 
Interesting thread. While we are 'torquing converters' (see what I did there!!) my aged TD4 FL1, 175k on original auto box, with regular 50k fluid changes is vibrating when accelerating on hills or towing.

Improved and not noticeable on the flat since I changed a drive shaft.

It does appear to be like the above, when TC is not locked. Is there a simple TC test? What actually wears out seeing as the TC is two discs and some fluid!! Probably over simplified that!!

Is it worth putting Dr wotsits stuff in??

Thanks
 
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While we are 'torquing converters' (see what I did there!!)
Clever. ;)
It does appear to be like the above, when TC is not locked. Is there a simple TC test? What actually wears out seeing as the TC is two discs and some fluid!! Probably over simplified that!!
What happens over time, is the lock-up clutch inside the TC wears out, and begins to skip when it engages (similar to manual box clutch judder). The TC clutch is there to minimise TC slip when it's not helpful, like when cruising or remaining as one speed for a period of time.
This TC lock-up clutch wear issue is only really evident on modern TCM controlled boxes, where the TCM modulates the fluid supply to the TC clutch servo. Older mechanical valve block control auto boxes didn't suffer much TC clutch wear, partly because the clutch was used much less frequently, but also because the clutch engagement was almost instant, without any modulated slip.
While modern modulated slip gives smooth clutch engagement, much like slipping the clutch between changes on a manual box, it does have side effects. An auto box is full of fluid which, which over time begins to become contaminated with abrasive particles, removed from all the clutch plates during normal operation.
If the old contaminated fluid is allowed to remain in the gearbox, then over time the fluid effectively turns into a grinding liquid, which strip off more plate material, contaminating the fluid further, so the cycle continues.

TC clutch shudder is often the first sign of impending friction surface wear, as the TC clutch is under the most load.

Apart from the TC lock-up clutch, the TC is virtually indestructible under normal use, as it has nothing inside other than vanes to direct the fluid around the assembly.
There are occasions when the vanes can be damaged, like running low on fluid, which can draw air around the system. This air will cause cavitation bubbles and local surface stripping of the vanes in the TC, which if l allowed to continue, will render the whole TC as scrap.

Incidentally, the TC clutch can be replaced, although it needs to be done by a specialist, with suitable cutting, welding and balancing equipment.
 
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Thanks, helpful description so the TC lock up clutch is part of the TC and would be replaced if the TC was changed?

So this also fits with my on hills and under load vibration issue.
I have ordered some Dr Trans shudder stuff. If it helps it sort of confirms the problem I think?
 
Incidentally, why do all manuals suggest the world will end if you remove the TC??
How do you ever replace it!! :eek:
 
Thanks, helpful description so the TC lock up clutch is part of the TC and would be replaced if the TC was changed?
Yes that's correct. Replacing the TC would give you a nice new TC clutch, as it's inside the TC housing.
So this also fits with my on hills and under load vibration issue.
I have ordered some Dr Trans shudder stuff. If it helps it sort of confirms the problem I think?
In my experience, Dr Trany Shudder fix, does exactly what it says on the tube. ;)
Incidentally, why do all manuals suggest the world will end if you remove the TC??
How do you ever replace it!! :eek:
I don't know, as replacing the TC is no different to replacing the clutch in a manual box. It's a large donut shaped fluid clutch assembly, which simply sits between the gearbox and engine drive plate.
Once the box is out, the TC simply slips off the input shaft, and a replacement is simply slipped back in to the box.
Getting the box out is 99% of the work, changing the TC is just 1%. ;)
 
This is accurate, but there also needs to be some common sense applied, as no fluid will last 150k, actually 75k is too long, 50k fluid changes is much more sensible, if expensive trouble is to be avoided.

Make sure you change the Haldex fluid and filter, rear diff oil and PTU oil too, as those are all liable to fail, if fluids are left until the LR internal. ;)
The Haldex is done, I'll put the rear diff oil and PTU on the shopping list..... That can happen sooner now the gearbox isn't being dropped out!
 
Put Dr Trannys anti vibration juice in today.
Massive improvement. So what does it mean and how does it work?
The adverts suggest it is not a long term fix but can it be reapplied say every year or so?

Mistified as to how it stops a worn clutch vibrating, but it does indeed appear to do that. Thanks for the tip, means I can out off changing the TC for now at least.
 
Put Dr Trannys anti vibration juice in today.
Massive improvement. So what does it mean and how does it work?
The adverts suggest it is not a long term fix but can it be reapplied say every year or so?

Mistified as to how it stops a worn clutch vibrating, but it does indeed appear to do that. Thanks for the tip, means I can out off changing the TC for now at least.

Dr Tranny's shudder fix is a fiction modifier. What it effectively does is allows the clutch plates to slip over each other slightly, rather than grab, which is what causes the shudder. It's not a permanent fix as the clutches will still wear, as they now slip, however they don't remove so much friction material while slipping into engagement, so it can extend the life of the transmission by quite a bit.
I'd use it as a way of preventing more transmission damage, while saving up or deciding if the transmission is worthwhile rebuilding. ;)
 
Yes, thanks. Will set me contact at the local breakers into finding me a low mileage jatco and TC when one comes in.

Some hope, but worth an ask.
 
Afternoon everyone.

Freelander 2 08 2.2 Diesel Automatic

Fairly violent Shuddering at point of changing gear has been identified by specialist as possible torque converter issue. I have been driving around the issue by lifting off or forcing a kick down. The mechanic has said nothing is imminently going to fail but ultimately to replace the part is drop the gear box out then might as well replace the whole unit (gearbox & converter) He is willing to fit a box supplied by me (I estimate 500 to purchase) but with no guarantee and charge around 1000 in labor. Or supply a reconditioned box for around 2500 plus 1000 to fit with a guarantee . Obviously the second option is eye watering at roughly 50% of the resale value.
Just wondering if anyone else has encountered this issue with an auto box. And what peoples thoughts are about the repair options and pricing i've been given. I'm wondering if there might be a more frugal option through a transmission specialist.
I use the vehicle daily in a construction environment and it's been ideal for this purpose. I have already spent a fair bit on maintenance in 8 months (Haldex oil/filter, new glow plugs, battery, tyres, full service) In its current condition I cant sell it so thinking I should repair it and keep it for the long haul.[/QUOTE

Hi, I had the same symptoms on our 2014 Freelander SD4.
When driven hard, there was no issues.
When driving gently, just cruising along (typically about 1600 rpm) the juddering was very evident.
There were no fault codes.
We fitted a new fuel filter and air filter, just to rule that out.
LR main dealer said it was auto 'box or EGR.
A mate is a mechanic at Ford, we blanked the EGR, it made no difference. He also checked the injectors, they were OK.
The auto transmission fluid was a few months and a few thousand miles old, but we got the 'box flushed and fresh fluid put in, still no improvement.
On the internet I read that throttle body actuators wear, causing similar symptoms, so I replace that. Still no improvement.
I sent the car to Freelander Specialist. They suggested the torque converter was bad.
I did some research, the torque converter has a lock up clutch.
When accelerating the impeller is spinning faster than the turbine, multiplying torque for acceleration, when decelerating the opposite is true,
But when cruising along at constant speed both parts of the converter are turning at the same speed. This condition is OK but not efficient (it is a fluid connection), so in this condition a lock up clutch is engaged, mechanically locking the converter.
When this lock up function fails, you get the juddering. It feels like driving a manual transmission in a gear that's too high.
Once I read that, it all made sense.
I got a new torque converter fitted, the problem is now solved, we've covered 5,000 miles since the work was completed.
I'm just glad I didn't get follow landrover's suggestion and fit a new gearbox.
The car had done around 65,000 miles at the time, it had FSH by Landover, the AT fluid had recently been changed.
Hope this helps
 
I think it’s called tranny shudder. You can get additives for the fluid, but I am not convinced they work. Mine did it for many years, but it never got any worse so save your money and drive round it unless it gets worse.
 
I think it’s called tranny shudder. You can get additives for the fluid, but I am not convinced they work.

Dr Tranny Shudder Fix does work to stop the shudder. However it's a fraction modifier, so reduces fraction on the brake bands and clutch pack, causing those to wear faster.
So it gives with one hand, and takes with the other.
 

Hi,
Would you mind telling me the cost to have the TC replaced please .
Have same trouble and tried all the easier /cheaper options including Dr Tranny anti judder .
It worked for a couple months then started again but not as bad as before .
Thinking about changing TC now
 
Hi,
Would you mind telling me the cost to have the TC replaced please .
Have same trouble and tried all the easier /cheaper options including Dr Tranny anti judder .
It worked for a couple months then started again but not as bad as before .
Thinking about changing TC now

You need to be 100% sure the TC is causing the fault before committing to having it replaced.
You'll get little or no change out of £1,000.
 
You need to be 100% sure the TC is causing the fault before committing to having it replaced.
You'll get little or no change out of £1,000.

After having added the Dr Tranny fluid and it worked then went bad again a couple months later I am optimistic that it is the TC.Had the fluid changed prior to adding the fix and that made no difference ,only went good when added fix.
What else could it be ?
 
.Had the fluid changed prior to adding the fix and that made no difference ,only went good when added fix.

Be aware that Dr Tranny works by making the clutch in the TC more slippery. Unfortunately a byproduct of this is it makes all the transmission clutches more likely to slip.
So you need to make sure that the transmission is thoroughly flushed out before the new TC goes in, or accelerated clutch wear will take place over time.

What else could it be ?
You need to make sure that it's definitely not an engine borne vibration from a failing injector or crank sensor, as these can also cause issues that feel like the TC to an inexperienced technician.
 
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