Series 3 Perkins Engine Swap - Clutch Issues

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Shutts

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Hi Everyone,

Hopefully posting in the right place now! Whoops!

I've recently purchased a new project to keep my sanity at bay during this crap time. I ventured through all the usual channels and managed to land myself a seemingly intact 1973 Series 3. The bloke i bought it off didn't have a clue about much, let alone Land Rovers which should have been my first red flag. Any way, long story short, I believe it has a Perkins 4203 in it, no history, but from what I can gather it certainly looks like it is.
When I bought it, the guy told me that it simply needs a new slave cylinder and all will be well, it had a tiny amount of clutch but really didn't want to go into gear.
I got it home and set to work. as I ventured underneath, the slave cylinder was definitely at fault, in fact one bolt was missing and one side of the cylinder housing had sheared off! I believe the gearbox is original, Overdrive, 4 speed etc.
Now for the start of the trouble, I set about installing a new one but it doesn't seat correctly, the body of the cylinder is right up against the bell housing, has anyone come across this when using a Perkins replacement engine, should everything fit as it did before? is there an adaptor plate or different slave cylinder to use?
I changed the master cylinder whilst I was at it but the clutch isn't happy and the pedal is tough and had no feel.
I could go on with the immediate issues but I'll start with the above!

thanks in advance for any help

Shutts
 
I'm not sure if I'm understanding the situation but it sounds to me like the push rod between the clutch fork and the slave cylinder is too long.

Does this sound right?
 
Stretch said:
I'm not sure if I'm understanding the situation but it sounds to me like the push rod between the clutch fork and the slave cylinder is too long.

Does this sound right?
Click to expand...

Could be, the slave cylinder is new (Britpart so unsure of quality) the main issue is the fact the new slave cylinder doesn't sit flush, the bell housing on the gearbox bell housing seems to protrude too much, pushing the cylinder off centre. The two photos attached are of the old slave cylinder, you can see it broke, you may also be able to see that it's up against the bell housing.
 

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Sorry but the pictures don't help me much.

Regardless - my advice is to remove the slave cylinder and then remove the push rod. Place the cylinder up against the place it is meant to go and see if it fits and see if you can tighten it in place.

If "it" fails that test then you are gonna be wasting your time continuing with the parts you have.

You'll then need to work out what's what.

You might have to split the gearbox from the engine to work out what flywheel is fitted and which clutch parts are in place. Then (assuming the slave cylinder will fit) you can work out if the push rod is of the correct length...
 
Oh yeah - forgot to say

Some vehicles have a spacer between the slave cylinder and the bell housing / gearbox casting.

I don't know, however, if this is going to be the case for your set up.
 
My Perkins is in a S2A so it has a diffrent slave set up. It does look like the cylinder is too close to the adpator plate. No great loss to take a chunk out of that if its in the way. It the adaptor steel or ally? Both are about. I really like the Perkins, its a great engine if its in good nick, very smooth and economical, trouble is most are clapped out but they are great to rebuilt as everything is avaible and cheap (much chepar than for a Series engine). Don't assume anything about the clutch, mine seems to be a 10" and looks like it could be Jaguar. The Perkins has a big flywheel so there's room for a bigger clutch. I would replace all the engine mounts, a few £ but they settle a lot with the Perkins: get a cranked 17mm ratchet ring, you'll need it for the front ones. Check the oil filter clearance, some conversions move it back (great) others leave it rather close to the mount, (not great). Try to get the flame start working, its a fantastic bit of kit. mine was connected all wrong.
My next job is sorting the exhaust manifold, mine is a) terrbile shape, b) paper thin. I'm going to get bends off e-bay and have a go - my next lock down project.
 
It may be easier to grind the edge of cylinder flange away so that it fits in square.
Then the when you have engine or gearbox off in future trim the adapter plate to clear clutch slave cylinder.
 
Hi
rob1miles said:
My Perkins is in a S2A so it has a diffrent slave set up. It does look like the cylinder is too close to the adpator plate. No great loss to take a chunk out of that if its in the way. It the adaptor steel or ally? Both are about. I really like the Perkins, its a great engine if its in good nick, very smooth and economical, trouble is most are clapped out but they are great to rebuilt as everything is avaible and cheap (much chepar than for a Series engine). Don't assume anything about the clutch, mine seems to be a 10" and looks like it could be Jaguar. The Perkins has a big flywheel so there's room for a bigger clutch. I would replace all the engine mounts, a few £ but they settle a lot with the Perkins: get a cranked 17mm ratchet ring, you'll need it for the front ones. Check the oil filter clearance, some conversions move it back (great) others leave it rather close to the mount, (not great). Try to get the flame start working, its a fantastic bit of kit. mine was connected all wrong.
My next job is sorting the exhaust manifold, mine is a) terrbile shape, b) paper thin. I'm going to get bends off e-bay and have a go - my next lock down project.
Click to expand...

Hi there,
thanks for your email about the clutch issues, still having issues where the clutch biting point is right on the floor and barely disengages the clutch. could this be a clutch issue rather than selector fork or slave cylinder? I'm trying (praying) i dont have to take the gearbox out as it's away from my workshop and i'm limited on tools and space.
if i were to take the gearbox out and replace the clutch, do i replace with a standard series clutch or do i have to look for something more substantial to work with the perkins engine? I'll shave the adapter plate down at the same time.
Sorry for the rookie questions but I want to use the Landy for my wedding car in July so best to get it done right!
thanks again for you help
 
As above get the slave to fit properly then do a little measuring to make sure you are getting the needed travel from the pushrod.
Could also be a worn pressure plate but theres not a certain way of knowing whats in there without disassembly
 
Agreed. Do you have the list of owners in the log book? Its worth trying to find who did the conversion and asking them what they fitted. Could save you hours.
Mine has a 10" clutch. The problem is there is no way of knowing what's in it until you slide the box back and take a look. Its very unlikely to be 9" series, it could be 9.5" series but these engines often came from Dodge trucks so that could be the housing. Mine has a 10" clutch plate that appears to be the same as a Jaguar but I don't know what the housing is. The trouble is with all conversions you really need to speak to the person who did it so they can tell you what parts went in and what were modified. Every time I read on here about someone doing and engine swap I think "that's going to drive the next owner crazy if something breaks" . There is no shortcut to getting to the clutch , identifying the parts and writing them down for future reference.
 
Yes as rob says, i am also wondering if its got a series 2a pressure plate rather than an S3 one, 10" clutch seems the way to go with them engines my dad used to have a 4203 in his 2a years ago and i remember him fitting a 10" clutch his mate at the time was a Jag nut so thats probably what was fitted as well :)
 
Shutts said:
Hi Everyone,

Hopefully posting in the right place now! Whoops!

I've recently purchased a new project to keep my sanity at bay during this crap time. I ventured through all the usual channels and managed to land myself a seemingly intact 1973 Series 3. The bloke i bought it off didn't have a clue about much, let alone Land Rovers which should have been my first red flag. Any way, long story short, I believe it has a Perkins 4203 in it, no history, but from what I can gather it certainly looks like it is.
When I bought it, the guy told me that it simply needs a new slave cylinder and all will be well, it had a tiny amount of clutch but really didn't want to go into gear.
I got it home and set to work. as I ventured underneath, the slave cylinder was definitely at fault, in fact one bolt was missing and one side of the cylinder housing had sheared off! I believe the gearbox is original, Overdrive, 4 speed etc.
Now for the start of the trouble, I set about installing a new one but it doesn't seat correctly, the body of the cylinder is right up against the bell housing, has anyone come across this when using a Perkins replacement engine, should everything fit as it did before? is there an adaptor plate or different slave cylinder to use?
I changed the master cylinder whilst I was at it but the clutch isn't happy and the pedal is tough and had no feel.
I could go on with the immediate issues but I'll start with the above!

thanks in advance for any help

Shutts
Click to expand...
If you post a picture, I can certainly identify the engine for you. It will have an engine number, and lists of Perkins engine numbers are available on the internet, including the original applications. The type of governor on the Injection Pump is a guide, vehicle engines usually had mechanical governors, industrial engines had hydraulic governors. Perkins still exist, and are quite helpful.

As regards clutch issues, it is important to identify what the vehicle was prior to conversion.
A common conversion was 2.6 petrol to Perkins 4/203.
A six cylinder vehicle had a different clutch, slave cylinder, and several other parts to a 4 cylinder.
 
cornish rattler said:
Yes as rob says, i am also wondering if its got a series 2a pressure plate rather than an S3 one, 10" clutch seems the way to go with them engines my dad used to have a 4203 in his 2a years ago and i remember him fitting a 10" clutch his mate at the time was a Jag nut so thats probably what was fitted as well :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice, i think i will certainly need to strip and do some investigation. if i were to install a new 10" clutch, where can i get these from? i assume they're not available from the usual LR part suppliers, John Craddock, Paddocks etc.

now comes a probably stupid question, can you fit a standard LR replacement clutch assembly in Perkins swapped car? i can get my hands on a standard 9 or 9.5" clutch from the aforementioned suppliers, is this a stupid question?
 
Shutts said:
Thanks for the advice, i think i will certainly need to strip and do some investigation. if i were to install a new 10" clutch, where can i get these from? i assume they're not available from the usual LR part suppliers, John Craddock, Paddocks etc.

now comes a probably stupid question, can you fit a standard LR replacement clutch assembly in Perkins swapped car? i can get my hands on a standard 9 or 9.5" clutch from the aforementioned suppliers, is this a stupid question?
Click to expand...
I think a 6 cylinder clutch was 10", not certain. You can get them from usual LR suppliers, or from clutch manufacturers generally. Valeo are a good clutch. There should be numbers on the clutch assemblies, so you can order the same one.
It was usual to use the clutch from the vehicle concerned, which is why it is important to accurately identify the vehicle.
The conversion kits were usually just an adaptor plate that fitted on the back of the engine concerned, and onto the bell housing of the Land Rover.
 
The thing that settles it is where the holes are in the flywheel for the clutch housing. These will be drilled to take a particular size and type of clutch housing. These are pretty standard so once you have a part number off the old one its easy to replace. This will determine the clutch dia, you can't change that without taking the flywheel to a machine shop and getting it drilled and tapped to a different PCD.. My Perkins was a vehicle engine from (probably) a Dodge van, is was drilled for a 10" clutch housing. The 10" clutch plate has to match the spline on the box (and housing dia) and it seems that the Series box has the same spline as the Jaguar box, this makes sense as Jaguar got their boxes from Meadows and they used std parts.
 
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