Freelander 2 (LR2) Freelander 2 diesel starting on 3 cylinders, now running properly, after cylinder head change.

Nodge68 said:

@Arctic2
A genuine / OEapparently has the word PurFlex on the top. My filter was a cheap unknown, apparently of German origin, so I'll see how that works. View attachment 219975 View attachment 219976 Apparently some cheap filters cause power loss when hot, so I'll see how it goes. If I have to replace it then I'll swap it for an OE part.

Off topic.
Do you have an IID? I've picked one up recently, but I'm pretty disappointed that the programming options for the FL2 are really limited by comparison to the programming options for the D3 I had.

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I have the Hawkeye which is what i had when i had my FL1 and you were allowed to have another code free so as i knew i was most likely going down the road of a FL2 it reads that as well but not found it to be fantastic to be honest.

These both have Purflex on them.
1

The one fitted to the FL2 at present and as been on since 2017 or before is a Mann and had no trouble with it as of yet,
2

When i remove the protective plate.
3

I trimmed the end off so its easy to attach & remove.
4

5

This weekend is my plan for manifold change, fuel filter, and other fluids, so hopefully over next 3/4 days i can get all i need doing, including adding dash cam.

Nodge68 said:

Been there, done that. I won't lend or borrow anything now. I've lost loads of tools over the years, including torque wrenches, spanners, pair of old style DIY ramps and a large floor jack, and probably loads more stuff that "walked" out of my tool cabinet, when I wasn't looking.

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Amazing isn't it, I loaned a set of HD steel ramps years ago and have no idea who I loaned them to - never got them back.

Arctic2 said:

I have the Hawkeye which is what i had when i had my FL1 and you were allowed to have another code free so as i knew i was most likely going down the road of a FL2 it reads that as well but not found it to be fantastic to be honest.

These both have Purflex on them.

1

The one fitted to the FL2 at present and as been on since 2017 or before is a Mann and had no trouble with it as of yet,

2

When i remove the protective plate.

3

I trimmed the end off so its easy to attach & remove.

4

5

This weekend is my plan for manifold change, fuel filter, and other fluids, so hopefully over next 3/4 days i can get all i need doing, including adding dash cam.

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Sounds like a busy few days for you Arctic.
Once I'm back from football, I'll seeing if I can identify which injector isn't playing ball when cold. Unfortunately the injector in question seems to have a mechanical problem, rather than electrical, as it's not registering as faulty under a diagnostic read. Unless of course the PTM doesn't monitor injector function.

Nodge68 said:

Sounds like a busy few days for you Arctic.
Once I'm back from football, I'll seeing if I can identify which injector isn't playing ball when cold. Unfortunately the injector in question seems to have a mechanical problem, rather than electrical, as it's not registering as faulty under a diagnostic read. Unless of course the PTM doesn't monitor injector function.

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FOOTBALL!!!
A silly auld fool like you has no business playing football, you'll hurt yourself.

Alibro said:

FOOTBALL!!!
A silly auld fool like you has no business playing football, you'll hurt yourself.

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Not me Ali. My youngest daughter plays for Bodmin Girls junior team. I have no interest in playing football, although I can actually play ok, at least I used to be OK.
These days my exercise is mostly lifting stuff like car wheels, cylinder heads and gearboxes and stuff.

Nodge68 said:

Not me Ali. My youngest daughter plays for Bodmin Girls junior team. I have no interest in playing football, although I can actually play ok, at least I used to be OK.
These days my exercise is mostly lifting stuff like car wheels, cylinder heads and gearboxes and stuff.

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You should be concentrating on the game, NOT reading the cr@p on here.

Alibro said:

You should be concentrating on the game, NOT reading the cr@p on here.

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Indeed. The wife always texts me to ask what the score is at half time, and I never know.

HELLPPP!!!
You won't see me asking that very often, but I've an issue and I'm out of ideas.

Start the FL2 up from cold, and she runs on 3 cylinders. Listening with the stethoscope is inconclusive, as there's too much valve noise going on.

So I figured I'd pull the injector plugs 1 by 1, to determine the effect on engine.

No1 causes a considerable drop in running speed and stability. No2 does the same. No3 makes no difference, so I think aha that injector isn't working. Pull No4 and it runs just like No's 1 and 2, so I deducted that No3 injector isn't working.
So I replaced No3 with another second hand injector and started it up. Guess what, it's still running on 3 cylinders. Again I pull the plug no No3, again no difference in running. I think, that the replacement injector is duff, so I switched it for another, with the same result. I ended up switching No3 injector with all 4 spares I have, and all had the same results, no running on No3 cylinder.

Surely all 4 of my spare injectors can't be duff I'm thinking.

So I decided to put No3 injector into No2 cylinder, and No2 injector in No3 cylinder. You'll never guess what, No3 cylinder still isn't running with the No2 injector, but the No2 cylinder is running quite happily on the No3 injector.

So I decided to leave the engine to warm up, as up till now the engine runs on all 4 once its heated up. Well would you believe it, that once it's warmed up you can hear the bloody cylinder starting to run, intermittently at first, but after another couple of minutes it's running on all 4, like a Swiss clock.

So I'm thinking, I wonder if there's a fault with the wiring, as that would make sense. I also noticed that someone has been probing at the injector harness, as there's indentations in the insulation near the plug.
So I decided to pull each plug off in turn, this time they all make a difference, so it's running on 4 when hot.

I go into the car and noticed the LCD showing a fault, and the HDC light is flashing. So I put my I930 on and read the codes. It lists multiple codes on the PTM, all related to injectors open circuit, and one for low rail pressure, but that's likely because I've been messing with changing injectors.

So if the PTM is reporting when I pull the plugs, then all the injectors are connected, then why doesn't it run on 4 cylinders from cold?

I thought It must be low on compression, assuming a sticky valve until it was hit, as that made sense, but I cranked the engine over when it was cold, and it definitely has pretty even compression on all cylinder.

One thing I'm not 100% sure of is whether the PTM reports an injector open circuit when it's cold, as I didn't see the HDC fault until it had warmed up, but I'll test that tomorrow.

So up to now I'm at a loss as to the cause, so any ideas would be appreciated.

Nodge68 said:

I've done a short video clip of it running too.
I've recorded several hours of video of me doing lots of work on this engine, which I'm planning on editing and uploading when time allows.

Yes I was pretty happy. It took 3 attempts for it to fire, but this was good, as it meant the oil pressure light extinguished before it fired. It actually fired almost immediately after the oil light went out, so maybe the PTM delays the start until there is oil pressure is up?

Unfortunately it started on 3 cylinders, it did improve as it warmed up. I know the replacement piston will take a while to be at full power, but the misfire when cold which I suspect an injector.

I think the flaps failing is going to be an increasingly common problem.

I'm going to do mine too. I've just been through the various specs, so I can find equivalents to the silly price LR stuff.
The other annoying thing is the lack of drain plugs, requiring all the fluids be sucked out.


Yes I'm going to do the Haldex fluid and filter too, again once I've found a sensible price for the stuff I need.

No problem. It's good to get this information out there, so owners can feel more confident about doing there own work. It does take more time, but it's worth it for the greater good.

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Can you take the injector out and pop it into a clear plastic bottle to watch the pattern ?

My mind had went straight to a possible valve issue, and trying to swap the injectors between cylinders, as you have already done. Then it was a thought of visually confirming the spray. Can you scope or otherwise check the injector pulses at the plugs and compare between cylinders? You need to find out if it's fuelling the cylinder when it isn't contributing. Does live data show misfires or anything untoward?

I once had a fault in a school where every morning the network was down (old 10Base2 thin coaxial) until around 9am when it started working and kept working the rest of the day. This happened every morning and I was out at it several times and found nothing wrong. After visiting a couple of mornings so I could try and find the fault while it was there I eventually found a BNC socket positioned above a radiator had a poor connection which was OC when cold but the heat made something swell just enough to make again.
I would suspect a bad connection in the loom that probably pre dates the lost nut debacle.
You didn't really think it would be as easy as replacing a piston did you?

As already said, be worth trying to monitor the injector signals and compare. A test of the injector loom would also be an easy to do test. Not knowing the FL2, is there anything that the very clever EMS might have done with fueling to overcome the previous misfire that is now fixed and the fuelling is out??

Annoying to have got this far and have the problem. Could even be a dry joint in the EMS somewhere?.

Makes you wonder if all the previous owners work was trying to find this problem when they created all the new problems!!
Will keep thinking.....

Dippypud said:

Can you take the injector out and pop it into a clear plastic bottle to watch the pattern ?

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There's no way to do that on this engine. The injectors are refurbished and the same cylinder isn't firing, after swapping 2 injectors over, which eliminates the injector.

Nodge68 said:

There's no way to do that on this engine. The injectors are refurbished and the same cylinder isn't firing, after swapping 2 injectors over, which eliminates the injector.

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What makes the injector 'fire' and what feeds that number 'pipe' ?

Alibro said:

find the fault while it was there I eventually found a BNC socket positioned above a radiator had a poor connection which was OC when cold but the heat made something swell just enough to make again.

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I was thinking the very thing. I've wiggled and pulled at the injector harness, but it only starts running on 4 once it's warmed up to about a 1/4 way up the gauge.

andyfreelandy said:

Annoying to have got this far and have the problem. Could even be a dry joint in the EMS somewhere?

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I'm thinking it could be an PTM issue. I'll check again tomorrow, but I'm sure it didn't register an open circuit on that injector, until it warmed up. It's very odd.

andyfreelandy said:

As already said, be worth trying to monitor the injector signals and compare. A test of the injector loom would also be an easy to do test. Not knowing the FL2, is there anything that the very clever EMS might have done with fueling to overcome the previous misfire that is now fixed and the fuelling is out??

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I don't know if the PTM has adaptive compensation ability. I see what I can find using the Wow/Delphi.

andyfreelandy said:

Makes you wonder if all the previous owners work was trying to find this problem when they created all the new problems!!

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Looking at the probing marks on the injector harness, I'm sure that an amount of work was done prior to it ingesting that nut.

Dippypud said:

What makes the injector 'fire' and what feeds that number 'pipe' ?

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The injectors are triggered using a high voltage electrical discharge (around 90 Volts) from the PTM discharge capacitors.

It's a common rail engine, so all the injectors get the same high pressure fuel from a "common" rail.

Nodge68 said:

The injectors are triggered using a high voltage electrical discharge (around 90 Volts) from the PTM discharge capacitors.

It's a common rail engine, so all the injectors get the same high pressure fuel from a "common" rail.

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Hopefully you'll find a fault in the circuit somewhere, it must be there as it doesn't travel with the mechanical bits ...

Dippypud said:

Hopefully you'll find a fault in the circuit somewhere, it must be there as it doesn't travel with the mechanical bits ...

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I'm sure it's not mechanical.
Which just leaves the electrical control. I've a suspicion that it's a problem with the PTM, which could be challenging to overcome.

As the car warms up isn't there a change to the air fuel mixture?
could it be that change coincides with the cylinder coming online?

Alibro said:

As the car warms up isn't there a change to the air fuel mixture?
could it be that change coincides with the cylinder coming online?

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Diesels don't work like that Ali. There is a very slight increase in fuel volume, but that's only to overcome the increased drag caused by thicker oil and stuff.

The timing changes more than the mixture, but again it's only a minor amount.

I'm beginning to think it could be something to do with the crank position sensor. I know the crank sensor can cause odd issues, mostly misfires when hot. However my thinking is that if it's signal is week when cold, and one pole of the reluctor ring is lower on magnesium than the other 3, then maybe the PTM simply isn't seeing No3 cylinder when cold? If the PTM can't see No3 timing pole, maybe it doesn't fire it? The way it run on three cylinders when cold is very odd, what is stranger is the way it begins to run on 4, with the missing cylinder just coming in randomly as first, before it just starts running on four all the time. This is all very weird, and the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that all the work on this engine was done, trying to sort the issue, until the person doing the work made it worse with carelessness.
I'm sure the issue is electronic in nature, simply because it's so temperature related.

The choices are crank position sensor, maybe returning a missing pulse for No3, until its warmed up? I might try cooling it down when the engine is hot, to see if I can trigger the issue.
The injector harness could be faulty when cold, but connecting when hot? However wouldn't this trigger a code when cold? Which it doesn't. This again make me think that it could be an issue with the crank sensor.

The PTM is the next choice, but I'd really not want to change that on the off-chance, as I believe it must be new, as second hand PTMs can't be reconfigured to work with another vehicle.

It's got me baffled, I must admit.