Bizarre swivel/halfshaft problem

I'm rebuilding the swivels on my 1993 Defender 90 and the stub axle won't go back onto the swivel once the halfshaft and CV are in position. There's a 2mm gap all the way around where the stub axle should meet the swivel. If I tighten it up everything locks solid and the swivel won't turn. I've had it apart and checked that I hadn't put the upper swivel pin bush in the wrong way around, but it's all fine.

It's a new swivel ball from Bearmach, and although the stub axle is new the old one has the same issue. The CV and halfshaft are original. Does anyone have any idea what could be going on here? I had hoped to have the axles all back together and attached to the chassis by now but I'm going slowly mad trying to work this out!

Still banging my head against a wall here. Could it be some sort of incompatibility between the new swivel ball and the CV joint? I've found a few references to a brass bushing on older CVs that doesn't seat properly in newer balls, but my CV doesn't have one. The CV seems to be seated fine on the shaft splines, and I've given it a good thump with a mallet to see if it'll go further into the axle, but it seems seated properly at the inboard end.

I don’t know but, I have read somewhere about abs swivel balls not being compatible with non abs cvs or some mix of. Just something I have been looking at but still trying to get up to speed and my facts/research for later project.
It’s a wild punt in the dark and I am not 100% sure I am not talking ****e, so please don’t take it as gospel.

think. You need mr Martin @jamesmartin

J

marjon said:

I don’t know but, I have read somewhere about abs swivel balls not being compatible with non abs cvs or some mix of. Just something I have been looking at but still trying to get up to speed and my facts/research for later project.
It’s a wild punt in the dark and I am not 100% sure I am not talking ****e, so please don’t take it as gospel.

think. You need mr Martin @jamesmartin

J

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Thanks. I've checked the part number I ordered from Bearmach and the kit listed on the invoice is BK0158 for 'up to K reg etc.' so seems right. It came with the 'wonky' upper pin bush which is correct for the year. I don't know if the wrong combination was fitted previously though. What's the difference between ABS and non ABS CVs?

Sorry I don’t know as just started to look into this.
Basically do you have abs (no) do you have a serrated ring on the cvs?

pics of what you have would help others that know.

sorry I really don’t know. And don’t want to send you down the wrong path.

J

Any help is much appreciated. And as far as I'm concerned there are no wrong paths at this point!

Resurgam said:

Thanks. I've checked the part number I ordered from Bearmach and the kit listed on the invoice is BK0158 for 'up to K reg etc.' so seems right. It came with the 'wonky' upper pin bush which is correct for the year. I don't know if the wrong combination was fitted previously though. What's the difference between ABS and non ABS CVs?

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wonky bush?
is cv seating fully into stub axle,and if it does does cv/shaft fitted in old swivel ball accept the stub ok

jamesmartin said:

wonky bush?
is cv seating fully into stub axle,and if it does does cv/shaft fitted in old swivel ball accept the stub ok

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By wonky I mean the offset upper pin bush that has to go into the swivel ball in a certain direction. One side is narrower than the other. I understand later versions were symmetrical. The CV seats fine into the stub axle. I'll have to check the CV in the old swivel ball tomorrow evening. I'll get back to you. Thanks.

Resurgam said:

By wonky I mean the offset upper pin bush that has to go into the swivel ball in a certain direction. One side is narrower than the other. I understand later versions were symmetrical. The CV seats fine into the stub axle. I'll have to check the CV in the old swivel ball tomorrow evening. I'll get back to you. Thanks.

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no all the bushes are machined on one side to allow full lock the bushes arent offset just thinned on one edge

jamesmartin said:

no all the bushes are machined on one side to allow full lock the bushes arent offset just thinned on one edge

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Ah, ok. I didn't realise that. If it had been offset I had wondered if putting it in backwards might have pulled everything inwards a bit. But obviously not. Plus it was in correctly anyway!

I seem to recall similar problem on here a couple of months back, couldn’t find it with the search.
Are you using the correct set screws? When I rebuilt my hubs I accidentally used the bolts from the drive member and it confused the hell out of me for about 30mins!

OK, I think I've found the problem. I bit the bullet and dismantled everything again.

This is as far as the CV can go into the new Bearmach swivel. Not very!


This is how far it can go into the old swivel. It can go in so far that the machined face of the halfshaft can actually go beyond the oil seal.


This is the inside of the old swivel. The depth, measured as the distance from a straight edge placed across the centre of the swivel to the machined flat at the back is exactly the same as the new Bearmach one, so that's not the problem. Now look at the bottom of the swivel where the bottom pin fits, and you can see a rounded recess that looks like it's intended to give the CV some clearance. This is also present in the rusty CV I took off the other side of the axle.


This is the Bearmach swivel, showing no recess. It's difficult to see where the CV is binding once it's in, but it does look a bit shiny on the top edge as though it's been recently scuffed and as everything else measures up alright I'm mighty suspicious.

So the question is, is this the wrong part, or has someone forgotten to machine out the recess (although on the old swivel it looks more like part of the casting rather than a post-cast machining).

Clean everything up and reassemble the CV joint to the new swivel but with a dab of paint (traditionally engineers blue would be used but paint would do if you don't have any) to see if you get 'witness marks' where the components are binding. I think I can see one just above where the bearing goes in the bottom picture, but a bit of colour would show you for sure. Sometimes aftermarket Land Rover components are made to quite relaxed tolerances.

Do you have a picture of your cvs?

J

marjon said:

Do you have a picture of your cvs?

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Yep

Any ideas? Have I got unfeasibly large CVs or are they standard size?

I can’t help. Not had to get in amongst mine, Yet it’s coming though I just know it.
If both cvs measure up the same, all I can say is get on to the supplier of the swivels and ask if they can confirm yours are the same as others (maybe it did miss that final machine process), exchange a few pics with them maybe.
Unless JM can spot anything, he deals with this stuff regularly so might see something.

J

Resurgam said:

OK, I think I've found the problem. I bit the bullet and dismantled everything again.

This is as far as the CV can go into the new Bearmach swivel. Not very!
View attachment 215795

This is how far it can go into the old swivel. It can go in so far that the machined face of the halfshaft can actually go beyond the oil seal.
View attachment 215796

This is the inside of the old swivel. The depth, measured as the distance from a straight edge placed across the centre of the swivel to the machined flat at the back is exactly the same as the new Bearmach one, so that's not the problem. Now look at the bottom of the swivel where the bottom pin fits, and you can see a rounded recess that looks like it's intended to give the CV some clearance. This is also present in the rusty CV I took off the other side of the axle.
View attachment 215798

This is the Bearmach swivel, showing no recess. It's difficult to see where the CV is binding once it's in, but it does look a bit shiny on the top edge as though it's been recently scuffed and as everything else measures up alright I'm mighty suspicious.
View attachment 215797
So the question is, is this the wrong part, or has someone forgotten to machine out the recess (although on the old swivel it looks more like part of the casting rather than a post-cast machining).

Click to expand...

looks like cvs arent machined fully

jamesmartin said:

looks like cvs arent machined fully

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That's strange. Do you mean it's oversize, or there are bits there that shouldn't be?

Resurgam said:

That's strange. Do you mean it's oversize, or there are bits there that shouldn't be?

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the bottom isnt machined as youve shown in your pics