Freelander 1 Freelander EV

Sounds like a lot of fun to be had here!
How will the gearbox cope with high speeds in 2nd gear? It was never designed with that in mind , everything will be spinning much faster than normal for sustained periods. Then there's noise, lower gears tend to be noisier (at least in older boxes)

Nodge68 said:

3rd with the PG1 box Ali, but I think 2nd gear with the Getrag box is closer the the Leaf's reduction ratio of 8 to 1. The Leaf motor seems to top out at about 10,000 Rpm, so that works out at well over 90 Mph with the Getrag box in 2nd gear.
Here's the maths. View attachment 212644

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Could the Getrag box handle 10,000 rpm without disintegrating?

kermit_rr said:

Sounds like a lot of fun to be had here!
How will the gearbox cope with high speeds in 2nd gear? It was never designed with that in mind , everything will be spinning much faster than normal for sustained periods. Then there's noise, lower gears tend to be noisier (at least in older boxes)

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Alibro said:

Could the Getrag box handle 10,000 rpm without disintegrating?

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I suspect the Leaf motor would have enough torque to handle 3rd or 4th gear on a PG1 and it is still possible to change gear for motorway cruising.
I guess there is only one way to find out.

I know a V6 is being considered for its stronger suspension owing to the heavier motor in that platform, but is there anything you've found that is a hard barrier to the other platforms?

Bounty said:

I know a V6 is being considered for its stronger suspension owing to the heavier motor in that platform, but is there anything you've found that is a hard barrier to the other platforms?

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Not yet but I still haven't confirmed the motor can be mated to the gearbox without fouling the IRD. I think it should but haven't confirmed yet.

Do we know the weight of the components going in? Electric motor looks way lighter than an ICE but that may not be so.

andyfreelandy said:

Do we know the weight of the components going in? Electric motor looks way lighter than an ICE but that may not be so.

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Not exactly but while the motor is considerably lighter than any of the engines the batteries will be very heavy. I expect a completed car to be in the 1500kg to 1700kg range.
Maybe even a bit more.

Alibro said:

My understanding is the Leaf motor can easily handle over 100kW but the inverter is limited to 80kW. By replacing the inverter logic board it should be possible to get around 100kW before reaching the limits of the inverters power stage.
Its great seeing different suggestions how it can be done and is one of the nice things about the Freelander. There are lots of options. It would even be possible to use the leaf transmission and turn the car into FWD only. As GrumpyGel suggested a 2nd small motor driving the rear is possible too.
The Freelander is 1500kg stock (less for the K series) so very similar.

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You'd need 3rd party info on the Leaf motor to find out what was acceptable - they're only going to publish data that relates to them selling cars. Electric motors sold for 'general use' will come with a maximum continuous and peak power. The peak power can only be used for short bursts as if they are used for any longer it will burn the insulation out - its very short periods to. Having said that, I've never driven a Leaf, but I understand they are quite pokey, although that may be the G2 which has an uprated motor.

Alibro said:

Not yet but I still haven't confirmed the motor can be mated to the gearbox without fouling the IRD. I think it should but haven't confirmed yet.

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You'd think it was possible cos the original engines are not small. That pic of the EV conversion was using a motor with an 8.5" diameter, and it looks close though.

kermit_rr said:

How will the gearbox cope with high speeds in 2nd gear? It was never designed with that in mind , everything will be spinning much faster than normal for sustained periods.

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It should be fine.
It could whine, but should take the RPM ok.

Alibro said:

Could the Getrag box handle 10,000 rpm without disintegrating?

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Yes. The gearbox will take the RPM just fine. It'll need a decent synthetic oil, but otherwise will be just fine, as only the input shaft will spin at motor speed, the rest of the gears will spin the same rate as normal.

andyfreelandy said:

Do we know the weight of the components going in? Electric motor looks way lighter than an ICE but that may not be so.

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The Leaf motor/inverter/charger weigh about 80 Kgs, so comparable with the 1.8K, but it's considerably lighter than the TD4 or V6, especially when the auto box is fitted, in which case it's well under half the weight.

Don't forget that the exhaust system goes too, so that's another 30Kgs, and about 15Kgs for the fuel tank and piping.

The 36Kwh battery pack I'd consider using will come in at around 300Kgs with it's wiring and metalwork, which isn't too much. I suspect a V6 HSE will gain about 100Kgs by going to electric drive, which isn't that much really. Thankfully removing the V6 and automatic gearbox takes 250Kgs off the weight of the vehicle, although the weight distribution will change a bit, but total weight won't go up by that much.

Nodge68 said:

The Leaf motor/inverter/charger weigh about 80 Kgs, so comparable with the 1.8K, but it's considerably lighter than the TD4 or V6, especially when the auto box is fitted, in which case it's well under half the weight.

Don't forget that the exhaust system goes too, so that's another 30Kgs, and about 15Kgs for the fuel tank and piping.

The 36Kwh battery pack I'd consider using will come in at around 300Kgs with it's wiring and metalwork, which isn't too much. I suspect a V6 HSE will gain about 100Kgs by going to electric drive, which isn't that much really. Thankfully removing the V6 and automatic gearbox takes 250Kgs off the weight of the vehicle, although the weight distribution will change a bit, but total weight won't go up by that much.

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Don't forget a full tank of fuel is around 55kg.

GrumpyGel said:

You'd think it was possible cos the original engines are not small. That pic of the EV conversion was using a motor with an 8.5" diameter, and it looks close though.

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I think it would require some butchery of the leaf motor casing as the top of it sits out a fair bit. Performance EV is mating one with a Porche transmission and hacked a pile of metal off it.

Alibro said:

Don't forget a full tank of fuel is around 55kg.

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Absolutely. The weight gain by going electric on the V6 is negligible, but the weight distribution will be different. However I don't believe this is a real issue, as the V6 and TD4 auto are noticeably nose heavy anyway, so by shifting some weight to the rear, could actually improve the balance.

Alibro said:

I think it would require some butchery of the leaf motor casing as the top of it sits out a fair bit.

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I think the Leaf motor will clear the IRD, and the rear mounting lug might actually be useful to support the outboard end of the IRD.

Is a CVT not a decent option for electric drive, instead of a traditional gearbox or auto transmission? What type of transmission is fitted to a Leaf?

paul99 said:

Is a CVT not a decent option for electric drive, instead of a traditional gearbox or auto transmission? What type of transmission is fitted to a Leaf?

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CVT is incredibly inefficient, turning huge amounts of energy into heat.

There's no real need for changing gear with an electric motor, as it spins at whatever speed you want to drive it at. It has just one moving part (well rotating), and so isn't hampered by Rpm limits of a normal internal combustion engine, with loads of rotating and reciprocating components.

Almost all EVs with exception of a few high performance models use just a simple, single ratio reduction gearbox. The reduction gearbox fitted to the Leaf uses an 8 to 1 ratio, meaning the output to the driveshafts spin at 1/8th the speed of the motor.

What's the maximum torque of the Leaf motor with the Leaf inverter? We experienced premature gear wear when we did a similar thing, putting an electric motor straight on to the input shaft of a gearbox and leaving the gearbox permanently in 2nd (although these were Fiat / PSA products, so maybe the Getrag (is it a Getrag?) box on the TD4 can take it better? Also we had some splined adapters made up from the output shaft of the motor to the input shaft of the gearbox and the hardening wasn't up to the job. They used to wear their splines out after about 10,000 miles. Motor were only about 50kW but about double the torque of the diesel engines they replaced.

Avocet1 said:

What's the maximum torque of the Leaf motor with the Leaf inverter?

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The Leaf motor is rated at 280Nm, which is slightly more than the 240Nm maximum output torque of the TD4 turbo diesel the Getrag box is normally coupled to, although I've read that the FL1 Getrag was designed to take 270 Nm continuously and 300Nm for short periods, the Leaf motor isn't going to destroy a good box too quickly. However the power delivery of an electric motor is much smoother than the thumpy power pulses of a clonky diesel, which should improve life considerably.

Avocet1 said:

although these were Fiat / PSA products

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Those gearboxes are known for input shaft bearing failure, even when fitted to tiny engines. In fact I've got to do a box rebuild on my daughter's 1.2 Fiat 500 box soon, as the input bearing has failed. The bearings used in these small European gearboxes are tiny, so they wear very and fail quickly indeed. Rover used a PSA box (I forget which) in the Rover 216, and it also commonly suffered input shaft bearing failure.

Avocet1 said:

so maybe the Getrag (is it a Getrag?)

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The Getrag box by comparison has a beefy bearing set, as it's designed to take the torque of that thumpy turbo diesel engine, so should handle Leaf motor's smoother power delivery, there shouldn't be an issue. However if the box does prove to be a weak point, then replacements aren't that expensive, and the bearings used are off the shelf parts too, so even a rebuild isn't that difficult.

Ideally a simple reduction gearbox used, however it would probably need to be a custom unit, which would be prohibitively expensive, hence using what is available from the factory.

Avocet1 said:

What's the maximum torque of the Leaf motor with the Leaf inverter? We experienced premature gear wear when we did a similar thing, putting an electric motor straight on to the input shaft of a gearbox and leaving the gearbox permanently in 2nd (although these were Fiat / PSA products, so maybe the Getrag (is it a Getrag?) box on the TD4 can take it better? Also we had some splined adapters made up from the output shaft of the motor to the input shaft of the gearbox and the hardening wasn't up to the job. They used to wear their splines out after about 10,000 miles. Motor were only about 50kW but about double the torque of the diesel engines they replaced.

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Getting a spline coupler is one of the challenges with the Leaf motor. I believe a Fiat clutch has splines close enough to use but it is true they may have a relatively short life.