Swivel set up

Rorie · Feb 10, 2020

Setting up the top pin on my swivel. I am down to a point where is it loose and will swing back and forth, or I add the thinnest shin and it then feels a little too tight.
Input a baggage weight scale thing on and initially it says 2.2kg but then backs off as it starts moving.
obviously 2.2kg is above the recommended, so I took the thinnest shim back out, but then it was really loose, wound that even register the load on the scales!

What am I missing? Is it better to have it loose rather than too right?
Once the seal was on it tightened things up further as expected.

jamesmartin · Feb 10, 2020

Rorie said:
Setting up the top pin on my swivel. I am down to a point where is it loose and will swing back and forth, or I add the thinnest shin and it then feels a little too tight.
Input a baggage weight scale thing on and initially it says 2.2kg but then backs off as it starts moving.
obviously 2.2kg is above the recommended, so I took the thinnest shim back out, but then it was really loose, wound that even register the load on the scales!

What am I missing? Is it better to have it loose rather than too right?
Once the seal was on it tightened things up further as expected.

looser than tight otherwise bearings will fail prematurely,but no free play,it will stiffen when you fit the seal

Rorie · Feb 10, 2020

Hmm ok. It was a little tighter than I think it should be. Once the seal is fitted is there a new ‘measurement’ I can take?
I’m thinking I should go back and take out the thinnest shim....

eprothe · Feb 10, 2020

Hello,

I've just spent the weekend doing exactly this - where have you read that 2.2kg is over the recommended preload?

The Haynes for my 110 Td5 says (Section 9.6 - para 24) "If the bearing preload is correct, a weight (force) of approximately 3.6 to 4.5kg (36 to 45N) will be required to turn the housing".

I've set mine up at about 4~5kg, as measuring it with a baggage-scale gives vary readings, as you've found. I'm of the opinion that the preload will slacken off a bit as the new bearings bed in, so I think slightly high is better than slightly low. I set my pre-load up with the swivel-housing back on the vehicle, the swivel-seal fitted, the stub-axle back on and the half-shaft fitted through it - I don't know if that makes any difference to the pre-load reading, but I thought I was better off testing it in-situ rather than on the workbench.

I've been told in the past that insufficient pre-load leads to wear in the rest of the steering system, prematurely wearing out track-rod ends amongst other things. As I'd gone through three D/S track-rod ends in one year before adjusting the pre-load and found it to be basically 0kg before I set it up, I'm inclined to believe this.

Fun job this, isn't it?

Rorie · Feb 10, 2020

300tdi manual says resistance should be 1.16kg to 1.46kg. From what I understand, that’s without the seal etc.

who knows how your supposed to read that accurate when it varies so much during the short pull.

I had the choice of apparently zero, or 2.2kg. Depending how I pulled, I got either 2.2, or I could manipulate to get 1.6kg ish. As it was the difference of the thinnest spacer, I figured more was better as things would loosen off.

not sure what’s best to do now. Testing now the seal is on isn’t really practical I don’t think...

eprothe · Feb 10, 2020

Ah, right - sorry - didn't realise it was a 300Tdi - who would have thought that the swivel pre-load would be different?!

Do you mean the swivel-ball seal? Why can't you check the pre-load with that fitted? It must add a bit of drag to the ball, but not a massive amount, I wouldn't have thought?

When I measured mine, I did five pulls back and forth and sort of averaged the value I got mid-pull - I thought the initial value was bound to be higher due to inertia. 1.16kg to 1.46kg seems optimistically precise for a practical/real-world measurement, but that's just my opinion

jamesmartin · Feb 10, 2020

eprothe said:
Hello,

I've just spent the weekend doing exactly this - where have you read that 2.2kg is over the recommended preload?

The Haynes for my 110 Td5 says (Section 9.6 - para 24) "If the bearing preload is correct, a weight (force) of approximately 3.6 to 4.5kg (36 to 45N) will be required to turn the housing".

I've set mine up at about 4~5kg, as measuring it with a baggage-scale gives vary readings, as you've found. I'm of the opinion that the preload will slacken off a bit as the new bearings bed in, so I think slightly high is better than slightly low. I set my pre-load up with the swivel-housing back on the vehicle, the swivel-seal fitted, the stub-axle back on and the half-shaft fitted through it - I don't know if that makes any difference to the pre-load reading, but I thought I was better off testing it in-situ rather than on the workbench.

I've been told in the past that insufficient pre-load leads to wear in the rest of the steering system, prematurely wearing out track-rod ends amongst other things. As I'd gone through three D/S track-rod ends in one year before adjusting the pre-load and found it to be basically 0kg before I set it up, I'm inclined to believe this.

Fun job this, isn't it?

i cant think why some would think a swivel has to be stiff otherwise the rest of the steering system would wear,unlikee the old rialko bush types the bearing top and bottom dont want too much preload more isnt better,though no free play is vital too,seal can make quite a difference which is why you check before fitting it

eprothe · Feb 10, 2020

Thanks for clarifying that - I'm not an expert by any means - any shared knowledge is very gratefully taken on-board

I've always imagined any pre-loaded bearing will slacken off slightly with initial use and then continue to reduce slowly over time, but is that the case? I've tightened the hub-nuts on mine to 150lb.ft (155 according to the manual, but my torque-wrench doesn't go up that high!) and that seems excessive to me, but I've always imagined it's due to the wheel-bearings leading such a hard life.

Rorie · Feb 13, 2020

I've been reading more about this and clearly there is a difference on pre-load depending if you have two bearings (top and bottom) or the 'Railko bush' at the top?
My defender is a 1990 90 with a Railko bush. I've looked up an older manual that has a Railko bush in teh set up, it talks about 3.6 to 4.5kg. This would be much easier for me to achieve than the 1.16 to 1.46 (maybe easier on bearings than a bush?).
@jamesmartin does this sound right to you, to use 3.6kg to 4.5 with the Railko bush?

Swivel set up

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