Fail on emissions, TD5 Discovery

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Its shocking how bad testers are and dont actually know a lot of the mot rules. One at my local failed my van the previous year for that nice new regulation they brought in.......making smoke of any kind for a vehicle fitted with a dpf....after a little word from me pointing out it didn't have one because of its age it passed.

Then recently they tried to put my permanent 4x4 on there rolling brake tester until I stepped in and pointed out there error..... ..both times my usual tester was off a time served mechanic and tester in his late 60s not a spotty faced **** who cant tell one end of a car from another
 
What always gets my goat is the question of advisories.

The station I have been going to for the past 18 years or so has two testers, and older guy who has many, many years experience and knows older cars. and a younger chap who doesn't quite seem to know what he's looking at.

I've taken a car for test, with tester 2, and had advisories. I don't usually fix these. Nrext year, same car, tester 1, no advisories. Third year, smae car agin, back to tester 2, same advisories. He obviously can't make his mind up and puts all sorts of stupid things down to cover his backside. I shall probably go to my local council test centre next year.....the older guy is retiring soon.
 
Nigel the Disco said:
What always gets my goat is the question of advisories.

The station I have been going to for the past 18 years or so has two testers, and older guy who has many, many years experience and knows older cars. and a younger chap who doesn't quite seem to know what he's looking at.

I've taken a car for test, with tester 2, and had advisories. I don't usually fix these. Nrext year, same car, tester 1, no advisories. Third year, smae car agin, back to tester 2, same advisories. He obviously can't make his mind up and puts all sorts of stupid things down to cover his backside. I shall probably go to my local council test centre next year.....the older guy is retiring soon.
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Testers like to put a few advisories on, because it lets the Ministry know they are actually looking at the vehicle.
When I used to take my Ninety, which was pretty much mechanically perfect, for test, the tester, who was well known to me personally, always used to put an advisory, "wooden floor fitted in back". He, and I, both knew that under the wooden sheet was alloy, which would not rust, and in any case, he could see the underneath of the body from under the vehicle. But he always put at least one advisory on every MOT.

The older tester at your garage probably doesn't care if the Ministry don't like him, because he knows he is retiring.
 
biketeacherdave said:
you cant put a permanent 4x4 on a 2 wheel rolling brake tester can you I mean you know all fours wheels turn dont they at the same time.
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If they can put it on the rollers, they will, but as a young MOT tester found out with my Freelander, if you do, then the car is driven straight off the rollers by the wheels that are on the floor. :eek:
Nothing surprises me anymore, as anyone seems to be able to get a testing certificate these days. :mad:
 
Nigel the Disco said:
What always gets my goat is the question of advisories.

The station I have been going to for the past 18 years or so has two testers, and older guy who has many, many years experience and knows older cars. and a younger chap who doesn't quite seem to know what he's looking at.

I've taken a car for test, with tester 2, and had advisories. I don't usually fix these. Nrext year, same car, tester 1, no advisories. Third year, smae car agin, back to tester 2, same advisories. He obviously can't make his mind up and puts all sorts of stupid things down to cover his backside. I shall probably go to my local council test centre next year.....the older guy is retiring soon.
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I took a transit van i'd bought to a proper ministry test station once. Spent time lining up between big wagons and expected a thorough test.
It failed on one minor thing, can't remember what it was now. Took it home and jacked it up to repair and found all sorts of other jobs including track rod ends and other very important requirements.
Couldn't believe it. I wanted a thorough test because the van was new to me and to identify everything that needed doing incase I missed something myself.
 
LUKBENPHI said:
What many don't know regarding air filters is they are fitted for if the car is sold into dusty environments

they UK isn't one so you shouldn't need to worry about running it without, think of how many classic race cars and bikes ran without filters under hard conditions and still do
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Dont ever buy a car off you
 
Bantam1 said:
I took a transit van i'd bought to a proper ministry test station once. Spent time lining up between big wagons and expected a thorough test.
It failed on one minor thing, can't remember what it was now. Took it home and jacked it up to repair and found all sorts of other jobs including track rod ends and other very important requirements.
Couldn't believe it. I wanted a thorough test because the van was new to me and to identify everything that needed doing incase I missed something myself.
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I have serviced many a truck days or weeks after it had an mot and found stuff wrong that would have been wrong when it was motd!
The thing is some of the tolerances allowed on for example hgv steering ball joints is scary.
Like the car mot they have dumbed it down.
 
Moron said:
Dont ever buy a car off you
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What I'm getting at is for the amount of time the OP would run it to clear his emissions up it wont do the car any harm, I'm aware of the filter out trick and the italian tune up and many others beside that I've acquired of the years on the spanners, I dont advocate not using a filter where the facility for one is available full time, merely pointing out that classic vehicles historically did not use filters and in many cases still do under hard conditions so it would not cause an issue in short terms senario.

For example how many of the london to brighton run vehicles do you think use air filters?

Personally on my own cars I use them and replace them on every car when required, so you'd be quite safe to buy one of my former vehicles

Whether I chose to sell you one is a different matter...
 
LUKBENPHI said:
For example how many of the london to brighton run vehicles do you think use air filters?
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How do you think the engineering tolerances on a vintage iron block, push rod engine differ from a modern aluminium ohv lump?
How often do you think vintage engines require servicing and rebuilding?
Unless you plan on taking your engine apart before every 54 mile run you cannot extrapolate one to the other.
 
Si Click said:
How do you think the engineering tolerances on a vintage iron block, push rod engine differ from a modern aluminium ohv lump?
How often do you think vintage engines require servicing and rebuilding?
Unless you plan on taking your engine apart before every 54 mile run you cannot extrapolate one to the other.
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Massively different ,but most of the early cars didn't have oil filters either so this massively reduced engine life as oil filters weren't invented until 1923 in the form we know now And as air filters in the form we know now weren't invented until the 1960's so wear and tear cant be contributed 100% towards the lack of an air filter as other facts such as oil technology played a factor

Take classic push rod motorcycles for example matchless g50, featherbed nortons etc, you are quite right to say that out of the factory the tolerances were quite loose, however rebuilt ones using the same plans but built to modern standards and even blue printed are still racing round the isle of man at over 100 mph average speed and still not using air filters

and with regards to DOHC engines even up until the late 80's bike racers and tuners were not using them and big tuners were again blue printing their engines but using big bore flat side carbs without filters and we';ve all seen the velocity stacks on older F1 & Le Mans cars with no filters on.

yes Something like a modern F1 engine that wont even turn over unless its heated due to minimal tolerances will require a filter but a TD5 of less tolerances would be fine for a 5 mile run down down the road to clear its throat
 
For a 5 mile run down the road, you are probably fine. But I would not wish to take one for a 20 minute motorway thrash as an Italian tune.

My point remains that you cannot use a vintage engine and extrapolate to a modern engine because airborne grit would cause far less damage to an iron engine with large tolerances, and any damage caused would be rectified in a very short time by the constant maintenance such engines require. A similar point is true for race engines, whilst grit will quickly damage them, most are rebuilt quite frequently - after each race for F1 and LeMans.
Similar point again for bike engines; yes many early British bikes did not have air filters, but they underwent much more frequent maintenance than modern bikes. You will not find many modern alloy bike engines where the manufacturer will specify induction without an air filter. Custom bikes often run without filters, yes; but that is the choice of the builder who accepts that choosing form over function comes with a degree of risk and mitigates it with generally very low mileages. It doesn't mean that it is a good idea for a working truck.
 
The world is full of vehicles that have no air/oil filters, that have been run on little to no oil, its not right but they still work.
 
Si Click said:
For a 5 mile run down the road, you are probably fine. But I would not wish to take one for a 20 minute motorway thrash as an Italian tune.

My point remains that you cannot use a vintage engine and extrapolate to a modern engine because airborne grit would cause far less damage to an iron engine with large tolerances, and any damage caused would be rectified in a very short time by the constant maintenance such engines require. A similar point is true for race engines, whilst grit will quickly damage them, most are rebuilt quite frequently - after each race for F1 and LeMans.
Similar point again for bike engines; yes many early British bikes did not have air filters, but they underwent much more frequent maintenance than modern bikes. You will not find many modern alloy bike engines where the manufacturer will specify induction without an air filter. Custom bikes often run without filters, yes; but that is the choice of the builder who accepts that choosing form over function comes with a degree of risk and mitigates it with generally very low mileages. It doesn't mean that it is a good idea for a working truck.
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Which s what im saying a 5 mile run once warm to clear its throat won't harm an old td5, and i dont advocate not using one where you've got the facilities to do so and would not advocate not using one do do the standard 12500 miles a year in

you have a point regarding race engines rebuild schedule but I would disagree on the type / age of an engine comparison as although classic vintage engines were not built to such tight tolerances with regards to the overall build ( oil leaks or technology etc etc ) I believe you are referring to the the differences in technology such as dohc multi valves etc and the quality of materials rather than individual measurements but the basics remain the same as in a basic form an engine is simply and air pump.



The basic combustion chamber / cylinder varies very little between the different ages, and all cylinders/ combustion chambers. swept volumes etc etc etc are measured and built using thousands of an inch or the metric equivalent which is a constant which transcends age

for example if the bore and stroke of a td5 were the same as say a 500 cc bike from the 50's (i know they won't be ) you would be able to swap the pistons onto each other without issue and both would physically fit in the cylinder as the tolerances would be the same m not saying run it like that but it would fit in the cylinder a
 
LUKBENPHI said:
I would disagree on the type / age of an engine comparison as although classic vintage engines were not built to such tight tolerances with regards to the overall build ( oil leaks or technology etc etc ) I believe you are referring to the the differences in technology such as dohc multi valves etc and the quality of materials rather than individual measurements but the basics remain the same as in a basic form an engine is simply and air pump.
The basic combustion chamber / cylinder varies very little between the different ages, and all cylinders/ combustion chambers. swept volumes etc etc etc are measured and built using thousands of an inch or the metric equivalent which is a constant which transcends age for example if the bore and stroke of a td5 were the same as say a 500 cc bike from the 50's (i know they won't be ) you would be able to swap the pistons onto each other without issue and both would physically fit in the cylinder as the tolerances would be the same m not saying run it like that but it would fit in the cylinder a
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Firstly, vintage or early classic car engines were made from cast iron, far less prone to damage than alloy. Secondly, they often had wet liners so that the bores could be completely replaced if they became irretrievably damaged. Thirdly, pulling the head, grinding in valves, swapping piston rings and honing cylinder bores was the work of a weekend with DIY tools. Finally, and highly relevant in this case, they rarely had turbos.

The first things that your unfiltered air will meet in a TD5, long before it gets to the combustion chamber, are the impeller blades on the cold side of the turbo. Those blades are rotating faster and are more prone to damage than anything in a vintage or early classic car.
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