I'm just in the middle of an argument with eBay and thought I'd let off
steam.

I recently bid on a roof rack described as suitable for Discovery or 90/110,
as I wanted a roof rack for the S2a to make a mobile work platform
(dimensions for series and 90 are near identical). I got into a bidding war
with some other bidder, the price went too high and I stopped bidding. I
put my last bid (which was outbid by the other guy's proxy bid) at 12:00 on
the final day of the auction. I went to check the auction at 15:00 to find
I was the winning bidder as the other guy had withdrawn all his bids. There
was a message in My Ebay (timed at 14:00) from the seller to say that he had
discovered that the rack was NOT suitable for a 90/110 after all. I tried
to withdraw my bids, as the item was clearly no longer the item I originally
bid on, but eBay refused to allow me to withdraw the bids. Apparently, if
it's within the last 12 hours of the end of an auction, and you try to
withdraw a bid more than 60 minutes after you have placed it, the bid must
stand, regardless of any changes to the item description.

Apart from being grossly unfair, this would seem to me to go against
contract law. If I ordered a radiator for the Series 2 from a supplier, and
they told me at the last minute that they had the radiator, but it was for a
Range Rover, I wouldn't be expected to complete the sale, regardless of when
I placed the order and when they informed me they could not supply it.

I've emailed eBay with a request for an explanation, but to date have only
received an automated response that ignores the points I made in my message.
I have written back to them in slightly firmer tones, and am waiting for
someone more senior to contact me.

The story has a happy ending, as I met the guy, he was very reasonable and
would have allowed me to walk away from the sale if I so wished, and the
Disco now has a very nice roof rack that I didn't intend it to have. (Well,
not yet, anyway.)

Just a thought, though - better to watch an item until the last five minutes
and then snipe it, than to bid during the auction, or follow eBay's
recommended technique of bidding the maximum you are prepared to pay
straight away.

Thanks for letting me share. I feel better now. Time for a lie-down.

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)

"Richard Brookman" <newsboy@nowhere.com> wrote in
news:3o0ckbF3jde5U1@individual.net:

> I'm just in the middle of an argument with eBay and thought I'd let
> off
> steam.
>
> I recently bid on a roof rack described as suitable for Discovery or
> 90/110, as I wanted a roof rack for the S2a to make a mobile work
> platform (dimensions for series and 90 are near identical). I got
> into a bidding war with some other bidder, the price went too high and
> I stopped bidding. I put my last bid (which was outbid by the other
> guy's proxy bid) at 12:00 on the final day of the auction. I went to
> check the auction at 15:00 to find I was the winning bidder as the
> other guy had withdrawn all his bids. There was a message in My Ebay
> (timed at 14:00) from the seller to say that he had discovered that
> the rack was NOT suitable for a 90/110 after all. I tried to withdraw
> my bids, as the item was clearly no longer the item I originally bid
> on, but eBay refused to allow me to withdraw the bids. Apparently, if
> it's within the last 12 hours of the end of an auction, and you try to
> withdraw a bid more than 60 minutes after you have placed it, the bid
> must stand, regardless of any changes to the item description.
>
> Apart from being grossly unfair, this would seem to me to go against
> contract law. If I ordered a radiator for the Series 2 from a
> supplier, and they told me at the last minute that they had the
> radiator, but it was for a Range Rover, I wouldn't be expected to
> complete the sale, regardless of when I placed the order and when they
> informed me they could not supply it.
>
> I've emailed eBay with a request for an explanation, but to date have
> only received an automated response that ignores the points I made in
> my message. I have written back to them in slightly firmer tones, and
> am waiting for someone more senior to contact me.
>
> The story has a happy ending, as I met the guy, he was very reasonable
> and would have allowed me to walk away from the sale if I so wished,
> and the Disco now has a very nice roof rack that I didn't intend it to
> have. (Well, not yet, anyway.)
>
> Just a thought, though - better to watch an item until the last five
> minutes and then snipe it, than to bid during the auction, or follow
> eBay's recommended technique of bidding the maximum you are prepared
> to pay straight away.
>
> Thanks for letting me share. I feel better now. Time for a lie-down.
>

Even if yours was the winning bid, I cannot see that you can be bound to
accept an item that had been incorrectly described. That is pretty basic
contract law, even if it is an auction. That is one point.

The limitation on withdrawing your bid is a completely different matter and
should not be confused with the fact that the item was incorrectly
described. That is poiunt number two.

Could it be that you got (as you suggest) an automated response to what
"the machine" guessed you'd said?

All has apparently turned out OK in the end -- but if it hadn't, and in
your position, I'd have been inclined to walk away. What would you have had
to lose? It is the seller who pays Ebay's fees and he is also the one who
misrepresented (albeit by genuine mistake) the item. Ebay rules are
correct!<g>

Derry

On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 14:54:20 +0100, "Richard Brookman"
<newsboy@nowhere.com> wrote:

> I'm just in the middle of an argument with eBay and thought I'd let off
>steam.
>
>
>The story has a happy ending, as I met the guy, he was very reasonable and
>would have allowed me to walk away from the sale if I so wished, and the
>Disco now has a very nice roof rack that I didn't intend it to have. (Well,
>not yet, anyway.)
>

I've only had two issues with ebay. Firstly with a guy who was shill
bidding - myself and another bidder reported him. I got no response
but he (and his aliases) have been kicked off ebay.

Second was recently with a camera lens found to be faulty. Seller
agreed to take it back and reported a 'dispute' to ebay and instantly
marked it as 'resolved' - I assume this was a way to recall listing
fees.

Sounds like you got a happy ending. Key thing is that ebay's rules
cannot override UK contract law - the worst that could have happened
was negative feedback. You could then potentially have sued for
defamation of course....


--

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig"
'77 101FC Ambulance aka "Burrt"
'03 Volvo V70

so Derry Argue was, like...
> "Richard Brookman" <newsboy@nowhere.com> wrote in
> news:3o0ckbF3jde5U1@individual.net:
>
>> I'm just in the middle of an argument with eBay and thought I'd let
>> off
>> steam. <snip>

> Even if yours was the winning bid, I cannot see that you can be bound
> to accept an item that had been incorrectly described. That is pretty
> basic contract law, even if it is an auction. That is one point.

My point when I wrote to Ebay.

> The limitation on withdrawing your bid is a completely different
> matter and should not be confused with the fact that the item was
> incorrectly described. That is poiunt number two.

This is my bone of contention with them.

> Could it be that you got (as you suggest) an automated response to
> what "the machine" guessed you'd said?

Yup - all the hallmarks of a "personalised" (Hi Richard!) automated
response, yards of crap about how to contact the seller when I had already
said I had spoken to him.
>
> All has apparently turned out OK in the end -- but if it hadn't, and
> in your position, I'd have been inclined to walk away. What would you
> have had to lose?

A totally undeserved neg would ruin my day, for one.

> It is the seller who pays Ebay's fees and he is
> also the one who misrepresented (albeit by genuine mistake) the item.
> Ebay rules are correct!<g>

Not sure I fully agree with you here, but...

Ebay's automated response said that I could not withdraw the bid due to
timing reasons (no explanation why this was so) and suggested I (1) contact
the seller and try to resolve it between us, then (2) suggest to the seller
that he uses second chance offer or (3) the procedure called "mutual
agreement not to proceed" (the seller has to initiate this, so you'd need to
be on good terms with him). This all seems very clumsy and unsatisfactory,
when all it needs is to say that if the description of an item changes
significantly during the course of an auction, all previous bids may be
cancelled, as they were placed on the basis of a false description. For the
life of me I can't see *why* Ebay insist on this rule. If I could see a
reason, I would be fine with it, because, as you correctly say, there is
nothing to stop me refusing to complete and offering to see them in court.

Luckily, this one ended well. The new roof rack looks bloody great,
actually.

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)

so Tim Hobbs was, like...
> On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 14:54:20 +0100, "Richard Brookman"
> <newsboy@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm just in the middle of an argument with eBay and thought I'd let
>> off steam.

> I've only had two issues with ebay. Firstly with a guy who was shill
> bidding - myself and another bidder reported him. I got no response
> but he (and his aliases) have been kicked off ebay.

The guy turned out to be really helpful and nice, both on the phone and in
person, so I was happy to slightly alter my plans and go ahead with the
purchase. If he'd been an arse over the phone and insisted that he had told
me of the change and he expected me to compete, it would have been totally
different.

BTW, how did you work out that a seller was shill bidding?

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)

"Richard Brookman" <newsboy@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3o0jitF3mjjqU1@individual.net...

> The guy turned out to be really helpful and nice, both on the phone and in
> person, so I was happy to slightly alter my plans and go ahead with the
> purchase. If he'd been an arse over the phone and insisted that he had
> told me of the change and he expected me to compete, it would have been
> totally different.

Wonder if his Uncle Albert was the other bidder.

Lee D

Richard Brookman wrote:
> Ebay's automated response said that I could not withdraw the bid due to
> timing reasons (no explanation why this was so)

This is done to prevent "bid shielding", where two accounts conspire to
raise the current price to an abnormally high amount to discourage
other bidders, then both withdraw their bids in the last minute and
re-bid, winning the auction at an artificially low amount.

> This all seems very clumsy and unsatisfactory,
> when all it needs is to say that if the description of an item changes
> significantly during the course of an auction, all previous bids may be
> cancelled, as they were placed on the basis of a false description.

I don't believe the seller can add to the auction description in the
last 12 hours, just as you can't retract, so you have a perfectly valid
reason not to pay because they can't deliver what the auction
represents. There's no way eBay is going to get involved in deciding if
an item description has changed "significantly". They can't even answer
an email intelligently.

> Luckily, this one ended well. The new roof rack looks bloody great,
> actually.

Things usually work out better when eBay's not involved.

so spaam_this@hotmail.com was, like...
> Richard Brookman wrote:
>> Ebay's automated response said that I could not withdraw the bid due
>> to timing reasons (no explanation why this was so)
>
> This is done to prevent "bid shielding", where two accounts conspire
> to raise the current price to an abnormally high amount to discourage
> other bidders, then both withdraw their bids in the last minute and
> re-bid, winning the auction at an artificially low amount.

Ah - I'd heard of bid shielding but didn't know how or why it was done. I
can see the reason for the rule now, although I expect eBay won't explain it
half as well as you. Thanks.

>> This all seems very clumsy and unsatisfactory,
>> when all it needs is to say that if the description of an item
>> changes significantly during the course of an auction, all previous
>> bids may be cancelled, as they were placed on the basis of a false
>> description.
>
> I don't believe the seller can add to the auction description in the
> last 12 hours, just as you can't retract, so you have a perfectly
> valid reason not to pay because they can't deliver what the auction
> represents.

No, they can't. What the guy did was to message all of his bidders with the
changed description after eBay had refused to let him end the auction and
relist with a modified description. I'm certain he was a decent guy and did
all he could under the circs.

> There's no way eBay is going to get involved in deciding
> if an item description has changed "significantly". They can't even
> answer an email intelligently.



>> Luckily, this one ended well. The new roof rack looks bloody great,
>> actually.
>
> Things usually work out better when eBay's not involved.

True, although without eBay I wouldn't have known that a guy up the road
(FSVO up) was selling a Genuine Parts roof rack that would go so well with
my Disco after a cock-up with the listing, to be fair. I'm putting this one
in the box marked "serendipity", or happy accident.

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)

On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 16:53:02 +0100, "Richard Brookman"
<newsboy@nowhere.com> wrote:

>so Tim Hobbs was, like...
>> On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 14:54:20 +0100, "Richard Brookman"
>> <newsboy@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm just in the middle of an argument with eBay and thought I'd let
>>> off steam.
>
>> I've only had two issues with ebay. Firstly with a guy who was shill
>> bidding - myself and another bidder reported him. I got no response
>> but he (and his aliases) have been kicked off ebay.
>
>The guy turned out to be really helpful and nice, both on the phone and in
>person, so I was happy to slightly alter my plans and go ahead with the
>purchase. If he'd been an arse over the phone and insisted that he had told
>me of the change and he expected me to compete, it would have been totally
>different.
>
>BTW, how did you work out that a seller was shill bidding?

It was t'other bidder who spotted it and emailed me. It was apparent
(from feedback) that the second-placed bidder had only won a handful
of other auctions. All from - guess who?

The big giveaway was that he answered a question from the other bidder
in the wrong name! Whoops...

Of course, ebay can see all bid history for all auctions (won or
otherwise) and the source IP address of such. So once alerted they
can quickly make a judgement and take action.


--

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig"
'03 Volvo V70

so Tim Hobbs was, like...
> On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 16:53:02 +0100, "Richard Brookman"
> <newsboy@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> BTW, how did you work out that a seller was shill bidding?
>
> It was t'other bidder who spotted it and emailed me. It was apparent
> (from feedback) that the second-placed bidder had only won a handful
> of other auctions. All from - guess who?

Makes it well worth doing the research and being a bit suspicious - on eBay
as in life really.

Cheers

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)

so Richard Brookman was, like...
> I'm just in the middle of an argument with eBay and thought I'd let
> off steam.

Final response from eBay (snipped):

"Please understand, if a seller changes his item's description within
last 12 hours, you will not be held responsible to honour the bid as it
is the error done on the seller's part. "

Apart from the fact that, according to eBay's own rules, a seller CANNOT
change his description in the last 12 hours, and the crap English (when you
cut-and-paste, you should at least read the final text before you send it)
this seems fine. I'm keeping a copy of this mail, just in case, however.

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)

On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 10:38:29 +0100, "Richard Brookman"
<newsboy@nowhere.com> wrote:

>"Please understand, if a seller changes his item's description within
>last 12 hours, you will not be held responsible to honour the bid as it
>is the error done on the seller's part. "

This is nonsensical, meaningless bollocks.

Fixed fee thirty quid silly-sodders letter usually acts to enlighten,
awaken and modify such clueless and officious corporate idiocracy.

On or around Sun, 04 Sep 2005 22:27:01 +0100, Tim Hobbs <tim@spam.com>
enlightened us thusly:

>
>The big giveaway was that he answered a question from the other bidder
>in the wrong name! Whoops...
>
>Of course, ebay can see all bid history for all auctions (won or
>otherwise) and the source IP address of such. So once alerted they
>can quickly make a judgement and take action.

ISTR in that case, he didn't get much more money anyway - you'd already
(with no doubt others) bid the thing up to a reasonable price anyway?

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine... War is hell"
Gen. Sherman (1820-1891) Attr. words in Address at Michigan Military
Academy, 19 June 1879.

>>
>>BTW, how did you work out that a seller was shill bidding?
>
> It was t'other bidder who spotted it and emailed me. It was apparent
> (from feedback) that the second-placed bidder had only won a handful
> of other auctions. All from - guess who?
>
> The big giveaway was that he answered a question from the other bidder
> in the wrong name! Whoops...
>
> Of course, ebay can see all bid history for all auctions (won or
> otherwise) and the source IP address of such. So once alerted they
> can quickly make a judgement and take action.
>
>

Some times its also useful to see what other items someone is bidding on. If
most of there bids are for items from the same seller chances are its the
seller bidding up his own items.
Can't remember how you do this on EBay properly but replacing USERNAME in
the following link (with the obvious!) will show a list of recent items they
are bidding on.
http://cgi6.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI...rid=USERNAME&completed=1&all=1&rows=25&sort=3

Liam