Vegetable oil v's Diesel

Have been doing some research on the web and was thinking of converting my
2001 Discovery. Has any body been using vegetable oil and can they pass on
their words of wisdom.
Thanking the group in advance.

Mick

Yeah! Father-in-Law uses it in his Toyota Hilux with no mods to the engine.
A ratio of 3 parts diesel to 1 part cooking oil. Not recommended for use in
winter though!
I did hear that Japanese Diesel engine are built to run on light Diesel
while over here we have heavy Diesel, which would explain why cooking oil
works, but I have no idea how true this is.
Wolverine.
110 Defender CSW.

MVP wrote:
> it's thicker than diesel so will put more strain on pumps,
> particularly injector pumps.
> it also lifts all the crud out of your tank and blocks the fuel filter
> with it, so carry a spare and if you get fuel starvation symptoms,
> swap the filter.

Do any of you cooking oil converts make your own biodiesel (process it
to remove glycerine)?
The process loots a little involved for the average garden shed, and the
home conversion kits look very expensive. One kit mentioned in the
Sunday Times was over £4k.
David

DavidM wrote:

> Do any of you cooking oil converts make your own biodiesel (process it
> to remove glycerine)?
> The process loots a little involved for the average garden shed, and the
> home conversion kits look very expensive. One kit mentioned in the
> Sunday Times was over £4k.

Though the chemistry looks easy, getting all the aggressive catalyst out
of the final product has to be done carefully, or you get the seals in
your pumps attacked and rotted out, unless the pumps are rebuilt with Viton.

Steve

try running 3litres SVO [straight vegetable oil] per 10 gallons of
diesel , this is 5% mix and you can run all year round on it .

is easier to get hold of the oil in the 3litre bottles because the
larger ones get snapped up quickly from shelves :-(.

just buy the cheap ordinary veg oil from someone like tesco/asda and
pour straight into tank when you are about fill up , youll note a
slight smell from exhaust but its not too noticeable .

change fuel filter after first 500-1000miles , then at normal intervals
..

customs and excise wont bother about you running 5% mix, they allow
that much error when dipping tanks , but any more and they may rap
youre knuckles .

the veg oil is higher viscosity than normal diesel and the reason why
the bosch pumps are reported to be ok for using veg oil is because of
theyre better ability to pump thicker viscosity fuel than many other
makes of pump .

you can also mix SVO veg oil with normal diesel to run it in older
landy diesels , 10% mix would run ok .

you cant run the 100% blend manufactured BIODIESEL in a lot of older
vehicles because the 100% biodiesel contains alcohol which will rot
rubber hoses , which were used a lot on pre 1990 vehicles .


Mick wrote:

> Have been doing some research on the web and was thinking of converting my
> 2001 Discovery. Has any body been using vegetable oil and can they pass on
> their words of wisdom.
> Thanking the group in advance.
>
> Mick

Mick wrote:
> Have been doing some research on the web and was thinking of converting my
> 2001 Discovery. Has any body been using vegetable oil and can they pass on
> their words of wisdom.
> Thanking the group in advance.
>
> Mick
>
>
I've just started using a bio-diesel (bio power V100) in my 1990
Defender 110 CSW. The only mod so far has been a heat exchanger in the
heater line.

With the fuel I have bought (70p/litre tax paid) I have been recommended

(diesel/bio diesel)

60/40 first tank full (& change filter)
70/30 second tank full (& check and possibly change filter)
10/90 from then on and the filter should be OK

I get my supplies from http://www.bio-power.co.uk/

I am considering an electric pre-heater so that I can use 100 bio diesel.

I'll keep you updated on what happens.

Cheers

Peter

Defender 110 CSW 2.5TD
Rover P4 110
Hillman Imp

On 2005-10-12, Mick <mtredwell@> wrote:

> Have been doing some research on the web and was thinking of
> converting my 2001 Discovery. Has any body been using vegetable oil
> and can they pass on their words of wisdom.

On a 300TDi Defender with initially no modifications I ran for about a
month on 100% veg oil direct from the supermarket, the truck ran a
treat. After that it seemed to lose power, so I fitted a heat
exchanger that sat between the fuel filter and the filter holder.
This fixed the power loss and it ran sweet after that. As the colder
weather set in, the truck would chug like fury with no power for the
first mile of running, including swamping the garage with thick white
smoke for about 2 minutes. Once I'd travelled about a mile it was
fine and back to running sweetly. I didn't think it would run through
the winter like that though as the oil would turn solid.

After being stopped by the cops for driving down a 3 foot long bus
lane and having to turn off the engine and coast to a stop to avoid
the stink of chips, I stopped doing it. As I lived in an
argricultural area and parked my landy in a neighbour's barn, I
thought that I was running a risk of being stopped and having my tank
dipped for red diesel. Also the neighbour kept red diesel on his
premises so had signed a form allowing random inspections on all
vehicles on his premises, which would include my landy. Given that
the consequences are in the region of 4,000 quid plus the confiscation
of your vehicle, even though I was saving 100 quid a month I didn't
think it was worth it. Plus of course making it run in cold weather
was going to take some modifications and I also wasn't sure how much
damage I would do to the engine.

Running on a veg/diesel mix didn't seem worth the hassle, especially
given that filling up from supermarket oil was a hassle (all those
bottles) and other sources (cash 'n' carry, restaurant suppliers) were
more expensive than supermarkets. Veg oil is quite sticky so if you
spill it on the side of the truck it makes a mess, if you don't clean
it off you end up with flies stuck to it!

Overall it was a nice idea but probably not worth the hassle unless
you can get reclaimed oil delivered by tanker into a tank in your
garden (which is entirely do-able), but if you're going to do that
then you might as well get diesel delivered in 1,000 litre quantities
at wholesale prices, which are about 20-30p cheaper than pump prices,
making it only slightly more expensive than veg oil. If you want to
do some tree hugging, you could probably get biodiesel delivered in
1,000 litre quantities for similar prices.

Finally, purifying the oil yourself involves some really nasty
chemicals that can kill you easily if you make mistakes, not something
to be done if you're not experienced with chemicals or have kids or
interfering wives around.

All of this was about 3 years ago, truck still runs like a dream now,
but I only use diesel these days. If I had more space in the garden
I'd try to buy in biodiesel in bulk but the tanks are large and
expensive (double walled). Next house perhaps.

Sorry for the disjointed rambling, off to bed now!

--
For every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert

Just to clarify the bio-diesel I buy is in 45 gallon drums at about
70p/litre and is duty paid.

I got a "sticker" from the seller so that if I ever get stopped, they
can call him and he will verify that I have been sold "duty paid"
vegetable oil.

Cheers

Peter

On or around 13 Oct 2005 01:03:03 -0700, "puffernutter"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Just to clarify the bio-diesel I buy is in 45 gallon drums at about
>70p/litre and is duty paid.
>
>I got a "sticker" from the seller so that if I ever get stopped, they
>can call him and he will verify that I have been sold "duty paid"
>vegetable oil.

where's that from?

and does it require any mods to the vehicle?
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Remember that to change your mind and follow him who sets you right
is to be none the less free than you were before."
Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (121-180), from Meditations, VIII.16

"Ian Rawlings" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2005-10-12, Mick <mtredwell@> wrote:
>
but if you're going to do that
> then you might as well get diesel delivered in 1,000 litre quantities
> at wholesale prices, which are about 20-30p cheaper than pump prices,
> making it only slightly more expensive than veg oil. If you want to
> do some tree hugging, you could probably get biodiesel delivered in
> 1,000 litre quantities for similar prices.
>

I buy derv in quantities of between 2500 and 7000 litres at a time and can
assure you that while there is sometimes a saving of 2-3p, NOT 20-30p, there
is also the probability that a loss can be made when fuel prices fall.
I do not know where you get your fuel price from but it cannot be anywhere
legal.

Huw

"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Ian Rawlings" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 2005-10-12, Mick <mtredwell@> wrote:
>>
> but if you're going to do that
>> then you might as well get diesel delivered in 1,000 litre quantities
>> at wholesale prices, which are about 20-30p cheaper than pump prices,
>> making it only slightly more expensive than veg oil. If you want to
>> do some tree hugging, you could probably get biodiesel delivered in
>> 1,000 litre quantities for similar prices.
>>
>
> I buy derv in quantities of between 2500 and 7000 litres at a time and can
> assure you that while there is sometimes a saving of 2-3p, NOT 20-30p,
> there is also the probability that a loss can be made when fuel prices
> fall.
> I do not know where you get your fuel price from but it cannot be anywhere
> legal.
>
> Huw
>

I need specs. Ian said 'biodiesel' not diesel. Still, if it were 30ppl
cheaper then surely everyone would be using the stuff?

Huw

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:39:58 +0100, "Huw"
<hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

>
>"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Ian Rawlings" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 2005-10-12, Mick <mtredwell@> wrote:
>>>
>> but if you're going to do that
>>> then you might as well get diesel delivered in 1,000 litre quantities
>>> at wholesale prices, which are about 20-30p cheaper than pump prices,
>>> making it only slightly more expensive than veg oil. If you want to
>>> do some tree hugging, you could probably get biodiesel delivered in
>>> 1,000 litre quantities for similar prices.
>>>
>>
>> I buy derv in quantities of between 2500 and 7000 litres at a time and can
>> assure you that while there is sometimes a saving of 2-3p, NOT 20-30p,
>> there is also the probability that a loss can be made when fuel prices
>> fall.
>> I do not know where you get your fuel price from but it cannot be anywhere
>> legal.
>>
>> Huw
>>
>
>I need specs. Ian said 'biodiesel' not diesel. Still, if it were 30ppl
>cheaper then surely everyone would be using the stuff?
>
>Huw
>

As said elsewhere, http://www.bio-power.co.uk/. It makes very
interesting reading - 1000 litre IBC's don't take up much room and
would last me a few months.


--

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig"
'03 Volvo V70

On 2005-10-13, Huw <hedydd> wrote:

> I buy derv in quantities of between 2500 and 7000 litres at a time and can
> assure you that while there is sometimes a saving of 2-3p, NOT 20-30p, there
> is also the probability that a loss can be made when fuel prices fall.

Hmm, sounds like you need to get a better supplier ;-)

The people I was asking were my local kerosene heating oil supplier,
they also supply DERV in 1,000 litre quantities, when the last fuel
protests were on the price per litre, duty paid, was 60-something
pence while the pump price was 20p or so greater. I've asked from
time to time since, and it's more or less stayed at the same price
below the forecourt price. And yes I asked if that was with duty paid
and any other little cuts the government takes, i.e. it was the price
that I would actually have to pay. I've not checked again in the last
5 months though.

Also some chap in another post has quoted that he's paying 70p/litre
for biodiesel duty paid, which is a few pence less than what I'd
expect the DERV to cost from my local supplier right now.

Get ringing round, sounds like you're paying over the odds!

--
For every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert

On or around Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:25:47 +0100, "Huw"
<hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

>
>"Ian Rawlings" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On 2005-10-12, Mick <mtredwell@> wrote:
>>
> but if you're going to do that
>> then you might as well get diesel delivered in 1,000 litre quantities
>> at wholesale prices, which are about 20-30p cheaper than pump prices,
>> making it only slightly more expensive than veg oil. If you want to
>> do some tree hugging, you could probably get biodiesel delivered in
>> 1,000 litre quantities for similar prices.
>>
>
>I buy derv in quantities of between 2500 and 7000 litres at a time and can
>assure you that while there is sometimes a saving of 2-3p, NOT 20-30p, there
>is also the probability that a loss can be made when fuel prices fall.
>I do not know where you get your fuel price from but it cannot be anywhere
>legal.

's what i was thinking. Last time I tried pricing bulk diesel, it would've
been cheaper to drive 30 miles to the elchaepo supermarket. When I pointed
this out to the supplier, they said that it'd be cheaper for them to drive
their tanker tyhere and get it filled up, presuming it were possible. Their
price for buying 10,000 litres at a time was more than the elcheapo was
selling it for.

supermarkets are no longer quite so cheap compared to other outlets, mind.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic
face by frightening people in the street.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

On or around Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:41:56 +0100, Tim Hobbs <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>
>As said elsewhere, http://www.bio-power.co.uk/. It makes very
>interesting reading - 1000 litre IBC's don't take up much room and
>would last me a few months.

jolly good. I've emailed the local bloke; will see what happens. 200l
would last less than a fortnight here, so only viable in quantity, or a
1000l one might be more cost-effective. Or go and fetch say 4x200 at a time
in a trailer.


--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"
George Orwell (1903 - 1950) Animal Farm

On 2005-10-13, puffernutter <[email protected]> wrote:

> Just to clarify the bio-diesel I buy is in 45 gallon drums at about
> 70p/litre and is duty paid.

Groovy, do they deliver across the country? I'd like to get some of
that. Can you give us supplier details?

Also, do you know if it's BS-approved, ISTR that there's some fuel
rating or sommat that some biodiesel now conforms to, the type of fuel
a car needs is usually listed in the manual and the fuel cap with this
conformance number, if the fuel matches the car then it can use it
unmodified.

--
For every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert

On 2005-10-13, Tim Hobbs <[email protected]> wrote:

> As said elsewhere, http://www.bio-power.co.uk/. It makes very
> interesting reading - 1000 litre IBC's don't take up much room and
> would last me a few months.

Great, there are two suppliers within reach of me (both about an hour
or more from me, as is just about everything, ah bliss!), I'm going to
see what the smallest realistic quantity I can get is, preferrably
around 2-3 tanks (about 200 litres) and will see how it goes. No
point testing it in a 300TDi engine, that'll run on camel ****, it's
the 1.9 TDi in the Audi that does the most miles.

The main concern really is anti-waxing, I don't want to have to
blow-torch the fuel tank each morning in the winter. I'll see what
they have to say.

--
For every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert

On 2005-10-13, Huw <hedydd> wrote:

> I need specs. Ian said 'biodiesel' not diesel. Still, if it were
> 30ppl cheaper then surely everyone would be using the stuff?

No you don't need specs, I was talking DERV, and the reason people
don't generally buy DERV at these kind of prices (about 20-30p
cheaper) is because most people don't even think about it (when I
mention the idea to some people they seem to think you're not
"allowed" to do it), and of course the reason they and I don't buy it
at those prices is because putting a double-walled 1,000 litre tank in
the garden with a pump attached involves too many negatives, including
setup costs, to feel it's worth the money. I don't do so many miles
now as I used to, if I'd kept up my commuting habits then it would
have been worth the hassle but not any more.

--
For every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert

"Ian Rawlings" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2005-10-13, Huw <hedydd> wrote:
>
>> I need specs. Ian said 'biodiesel' not diesel. Still, if it were
>> 30ppl cheaper then surely everyone would be using the stuff?
>
> No you don't need specs, I was talking DERV, and the reason people
> don't generally buy DERV at these kind of prices (about 20-30p
> cheaper) is because most people don't even think about it (when I
> mention the idea to some people they seem to think you're not
> "allowed" to do it), and of course the reason they and I don't buy it
> at those prices is because putting a double-walled 1,000 litre tank in
> the garden with a pump attached involves too many negatives, including
> setup costs, to feel it's worth the money. I don't do so many miles
> now as I used to, if I'd kept up my commuting habits then it would
> have been worth the hassle but not any more.
>

Well I shop around a bit for 40,000 litres of fuel I buy in bulk every year
and on the day of a deal I have seldom bought at more than a 5ppl saving
compared to the pump price and mostly less than that. When prices lower at
the pumps I am often lumbered with a quantity of fuel bought at a higher
price. Sometimes I strike lucky and fill the tanks with lower priced fuel on
a rising market but it is a case of 'swings and roundabouts'.
Unless one hauls ones own fuel in from the refinery by the tanker load then
20-30ppl saving is a fantasy.

"Ian Rawlings" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2005-10-13, Huw <hedydd> wrote:
>
>> I buy derv in quantities of between 2500 and 7000 litres at a time and
>> can
>> assure you that while there is sometimes a saving of 2-3p, NOT 20-30p,
>> there
>> is also the probability that a loss can be made when fuel prices fall.
>
> Hmm, sounds like you need to get a better supplier ;-)
>
> The people I was asking were my local kerosene heating oil supplier,

Ah! So you have no actual experience of these fantastic savings.




> they also supply DERV in 1,000 litre quantities, when the last fuel
> protests were on the price per litre, duty paid, was 60-something
> pence while the pump price was 20p or so greater. I've asked from
> time to time since, and it's more or less stayed at the same price
> below the forecourt price.

Forgive me for saying that this is rubbish. It has just dawned on me that
you have not worked out yet that when a fuel distributor qutes a price for
derv it is always exclusive of VAT while the pump price is always inclusive.


>And yes I asked if that was with duty paid
> and any other little cuts the government takes, i.e. it was the price
> that I would actually have to pay. I've not checked again in the last
> 5 months though.
>
> Also some chap in another post has quoted that he's paying 70p/litre
> for biodiesel duty paid, which is a few pence less than what I'd
> expect the DERV to cost from my local supplier right now.

You will be a very disappointed.




>
> Get ringing round, sounds like you're paying over the odds!
>

Sounds very much like you know-it-all but know f*** all at the end of the
day. *You* do the ringing. I actually do it on a regular basis.

Huw