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L322 Vanos rattle? And fault codes- help!

Discussion in 'Range Rover' started by GavV8, Mar 4, 2018.

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  1. GavV8

    GavV8 Member

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    Hi guys. New to the forum here. Joined having recently picked up an 02 L322 4.4 v8 (m62).

    The car was very cheap due to an issue that has flummoxed the last 2 owners and im determined to get to the cause. But now could do with some help.

    So the car has a cold start rattle which goes away after a few seconds, and returns when at full operating temperature. The sound is located on the rh front of the rocker cover when viewed from the front.

    So i have heard many theories about the cause so i have tried the following. Oil change with gen LR oil and filter, vanos solenoid on that noisy bank, timing chain tensioner on the opposite bank, tried the lifter bleed 3k for 30 seconds routine. Grasping at straws. So noise is still there. Is it vanos chatter - would that give me timing codes?

    The old vogue does drive ok, good power etc but i would say it has an unpredictable throttle response as in sometimes a tiny flex of throttle and the cars surging forward like ive just nailed the throttle. Perhaps these have a very sensitive throttle that im not used to?

    I have done an obd read and have P0102 - mass or volume air flow A circuit low, P0011- A camshaft position timing over advanced bank 1, and P0122 - A camshaft position timing over advanced bank 2.

    So the last bit of info i have is that the engine has had a rebuild inc liners and replacement cylinder heads. Why it had this in its past i do not know but perhaps its relevant. Maybe it was timed up wrong at rebuild (5k ago but 3 owners ago)? Would that give me a rattle? Cars on 155k.

    So next i was going to try the non return valves behind the vanos solenoids incase they are not retaining oil pressure? or am i barking up the wrong tree?

    Any and all help desperately needed

    Many thanks - Gav
     
  2. Saint.V8

    Saint.V8 Dyed-in-the-wool 100% RR Junkie

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    Quick reply as I am off out soon and may be able to more later.

    The M62 is very very VERY rarely re-lined, the cost is enormous and getting the Alusil honed out and getting new ones in and seated correctly is a mega job....I have only ever heard of a handful ever being lined.....are you sure it has been re-lined - often it is cheaper just to stick a re-manufactured engine in.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  3. Goc3k

    Goc3k Active Member

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    The last owners can't have looked too hard, the M62 has a few faults near on every engine will get, both pop up on google pretty much as the first results if you search "noisy vanos m62" or "rattle at front of m62"

    Noise / chatter in the vanos system generally indicates the oil pressure is too low (within the system, not in general), mostly owing to the main seal and o ring inside the vanos gear no longer sealing well. If you sort this out fairly quickly you can usually get away with just changing the seals if the engine has seen good servicing up to that point, but once they've been left for an excessive period it usually involves new vanos units to get the engine running like new again, though if you're fairly time rich (& handy on the tools) and cash poor I'd try that first. You will need to repair both sides as well, not just the noisy side - will just lead to accelerated aggro in the future not doing so.

    The other very common issue is the plastic timing chain guides. As they age, along with any other plastic experiences lots of heat up and cool down cycles they become brittle and can cause a lot of poor / erratic running symptoms. You mentioned having changed one, safe bet is get the other one changed as well, especially as you have OBD codes related to off timing.

    Plenty of specialists about with good knowledge on vanos rattles, if you want a proper opinion

    Are there any receipts / proof for the arduous job of re-lining the block and two new cylinder heads?
     
  4. GavV8

    GavV8 Member

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    Here is the receipt for the work done. It must have some link to this work as it appears relatively recent?
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Goc3k

    Goc3k Active Member

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    Seems a small bill for labour considering the amount of work supposedly done.

    So no evidence of any work carried out on the vanos units, and no sign of a chain and tensioner kit included in the "rebuild"?
     
  6. GavV8

    GavV8 Member

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    Not that i can see. So assume old vanos units carried over onto new heads?

    The old chain tensioner spring certainly seemed weak compared to the new one i installed so wouldnt say it looked 4k old, id guess it was older.

    I do not know the garage that carried out the work, nor the reason why it needed this 'rebuild', just find it a weird coincidence.

    The timing codes im getting, would rattling vanos potentially throw these sort of timing codes?
     
  7. Goc3k

    Goc3k Active Member

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    Aye safe to assume they re-used the units on the new heads without any extra work then, same for the chain being re-used i suppose.

    At a behind the keyboard guess i'd say yes (what are you reading the codes with, a generic reader?) - i've worked on a few bmw vanos engines and there are great bits of kit that read the fault codes that are vanos specific - such as if vanos exhaust timing is over advanced, or if there is a position control issue, etc. I'd assume a good LR specialist would have a rangey equivalent bit of software.

    Change those previously mentioned seals first though, the most obvious shotgun repairs can be worthwhile if you have the time. just google it and you'll find a mountain of info. Just looked on trusty fleabay, you can get the timing tools kit for about 90 quid, not bad if you cant find a helpful loaner!
     
  8. GavV8

    GavV8 Member

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    Changing the seals may be a bit out of my mechanical ability.

    The code reader used was indeed a universal one.

    Do very much appreciate your input G03ck
     
  9. Goc3k

    Goc3k Active Member

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    Service manuals, tea and patience would sort that right out!

    The vanos unit on the m62 is fairly simple at least, as it is one of the earlier units. - i'd read up on the procedure a bit before discounting doing it yourself.

    No doubt one of the rangey gurus will give you some handy hints by tomorrow anyway, might yet be something else easy worth doing :)
     
  10. Goc3k

    Goc3k Active Member

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    Plus as an obvious extra, you mentioned P0102, would also be worth seeing what state the maf is in and its local connector and wiring, along with taking the real time data with the ignition on, engine off and then at idle, and while driving, to see if it is erratic, before buying anything you don't need. A poor ground can also throw that code, along with a map sensor not seeing correct vacuum (which should be about 100kpa ignition on engine off) - and simple issues such as vac leaks post maf - all worth checking as that might be providing some of the rough running / surging making the vanos control appear worse than it is. If you have a vid or just audio of the engine at idle that would help to a degree, that would be handy also for anyone with a good ear for vanos rattles
     
  11. GavV8

    GavV8 Member

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    Did take a video but cant seem to work out how to upload it?
     
  12. Goc3k

    Goc3k Active Member

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    you can upload to youtube then embed the link or just provide a link to it
     
  13. Saint.V8

    Saint.V8 Dyed-in-the-wool 100% RR Junkie

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    I am confused as to why they would only liner 4 of the 8 cylinders - considering the immense work required to fit liners...

    Here are a fwe photos of a linered M/S62 BMW engine - the tolerances are minute and require some exceptional work to do without breaking through the cylinder wall.

    And you certainly wouldn't just do half and engine!

    s62sleeve2.jpg

    s62sleeve3.jpg

    s65sleeve4.jpg
     
  14. GavV8

    GavV8 Member

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    This is a short, crappy video but youl get the idea
     
  15. Saint.V8

    Saint.V8 Dyed-in-the-wool 100% RR Junkie

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    That is not VANOS rattle to my ears.....That is either a lazy lifter (but these are usually higher in tone) that is quite a knock - if it was a P38, I'd say it was a slipped liner....but the frequency would suggest it is tapping at cam speed not crank speed (Cam rotates once for each two rotations of crank) so could be a lazy lifter....but it is a heavy dull knock rather than a higher pitched tapping of a lifter....hmmmmmm gonna have to keep listening to it I think.
     
  16. GavV8

    GavV8 Member

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    What ever it is its only when hot at idle and very cold initial start. Apart from that its quiet as a mouse until warm
     
  17. Saint.V8

    Saint.V8 Dyed-in-the-wool 100% RR Junkie

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    Points to a lazy lifter or possibly VANOS then....when cold - it needs to be pumped up and primed....then when the engine gets warm and the oil thins out, the lifter loses prime (due to the thinner oil) and begins ticking again.

    Similarly with VANOS, as the oil thins out, it leaks past the seals cause the VANOS gears to chatter.....but VANOS is just that - a chatter/rattle/tick rather than a knocking.....

    If I was a betting man, I would say lifter.

    Get an engine stethascope (long pointy thing) and go along the top of the engine rocker cover and see if you can find the point the noise/knocking sounds loudest ..... if it is at the very front of the engine than VANOS, further back its a lifter.
     
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  18. Goc3k

    Goc3k Active Member

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    Wasn't expecting that noise! usually a higher pitched slightly muddled tapping /chatter is vanos, whereas a "bad lifter" mild chug often pointed to a bad chain tensioner, especially when throwing camshaft timing codes (which you already changed though, so forget that).

    Saint.V8 will have a better ear for it than me so deffo check with a screwdriver for where the noise is coming from as suggested

    Didn't realize the wall was so thin as well between the liners, no wonder its a rare job changing them! lovely bit of machining porn those photos though :D

    My only other thought, is on the old M62 in the earlier BMW's, they were fitted with 108c stats and often suffered from rattles and scarey sounds when warmed up and well run in, and a good bodge was to bung in an 85c stat which helped with virtually all the common rattles and running issues - used to be a few people that sold kits for it, think the gist was to take a stat from the m60 engine and machine a deeper groove into the m62 housing to accept it - no doubt the original post is on bmwland or bimmerforums or wherever i read it years back. Anyway, is that a load of nonsense on the rangey m62 or a potential? Easier than changing a lifter at least
     
  19. Goc3k

    Goc3k Active Member

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  20. Fergie46

    Fergie46 Active Member

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    Doesn't sound like valve train to me - too deep and heavy? Like heavy piston slap. Piston skirt cracked possibly.

    Noticed that the owner at time of rebuild had a Rotherham address but the car was repaired in Sunbury - perhaps it broke down in a serious way. Owner also provided the replacement mill if I read it right.

    Four liners - looks like costs were trying to be kept down - and use the "old" pistons, hmmm.

    Pipes melted on knock sensor - overheating issue on failure?
     
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