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L322 Vanos issues, won't start.

Discussion in 'Range Rover' started by DeepEndLearner, Jul 27, 2017.

  1. DeepEndLearner

    DeepEndLearner Member

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    Location:
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    RR Vouge 2002
    4.4 petrol
    Engine BMW m62

    Okay some people seem keen to address the big issue I'm having with my engine not starting, this is great to here.

    The engine previously when I received the car would start and run but sounded like sh*t. I had error messages p0021 p0011 which was timing in advanced state.

    I opened up the oil pan. No broken chain guides. But evidence that some had been here before.

    Elsewhere there is evidence of someone attempting this work but quite sloppy.

    After taking off the camshaft covers i can see scoring on the vanos drum where someone has held it in a vice or plumb grips. The solenoid are scored similarly which I'm worried about to much pressure can crimp them to ground out to the casing :(

    the viscous fan nut looks like it's been hammered to with an inch of its life. And some blobs of liquid gasket sealant on the odd chain link from careless reassembly.

    The previous person was sloppy had no respect for this engine, didn't have the right tools, or the correct knowledge.

    The chain rails look like they have been replaced and look good. It looks like the vanos has been worked on too. I'm guessing this guy has maybe also replaced the buna seals but I wouldn't trust that.

    My guess was that this guy not having the proper tools simply didn't time the engine properly. I bought a timing kit -£'s :( and figured step one would be to check the timing. The vanos pistons did not appear to be fully closed and there was no continuity in the pins. I closed them off fully (repeatedly) and checked for continuity on pins (only 2 of three pins worked) torqued up best I could (I don't have a left hand torque wrench) rotated the engine by hand rechecked and it all seemed good. (Basically I followed the bmw basiean instructions)

    Battery clicked clicked clicked wouldn't turn even after charging. Bought a new battery -£'s :( and now the engine turns over but won't start.

    Twice made a very loud and very huge POP!! Not a bang but a huge pop.

    There is the following as a result of slight short cuts when putting it together to check if it starts.

    the silver balance pipe between left and right engine running above the belts isn't properly secured and not fully connected into the block. needs another attempt.

    There is 1 cable disconnected in engine bay toward the back which i didn't do and don't know where it goes.

    The viscous fan isn't in place.

    The plastic cover for the coils are not on.

    Oil is at the lowest point on dip stick.

    Fuel rail has petrol in it checked by pressing little valve.

    Air filter is not connected or plumbed in.

    Error code p0347 from ODB after clearing and restarting the engine.

    Can I have some opinions and next steps on what I should check/do/redo.

    I had 1 round of checking fuses in all three locations.

    If the vanos is still wrecked inside id expect it to start but sound like sh*t again. If oil level was too low to pressure the vanos again id expect it to start just sound horrible.
     
  2. kg74

    kg74 Member

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    You have a lot of balls moving. The very first thing I would do is check out the condition of your cylinders. You can do a compression test. My concern is the engine may have cylinder wall damage. After this you can drop the lower oil pan and look for deep scratches and metal sparkle on the lower portions of the cylinder walls. You cannot see much but you can see enough. On my third engine I was able to see heavy gouges and found trace metal by looking up from the lower oil pan opening at the lower cylinder walls. I assure you they can be seen - maybe rotate the engine so you can see more. My viewing revealed the block was toast. If you have a scope put it in each cylinder and look at the cylinder walls for scarring. Assuming it checks out things are looking up.

    The engine previously when I received the car would start and run but sounded like sh*t. I had error messages p0021 p0011 which was timing in advanced state.

    I opened up the oil pan. No broken chain guides. But evidence that some had been here before.

    Elsewhere there is evidence of someone attempting this work but quite sloppy.

    After taking off the camshaft covers i can see scoring on the vanos drum where someone has held it in a vice or plumb grips. The solenoid are scored similarly which I'm worried about to much pressure can crimp them to ground out to the casing :(

    the viscous fan nut looks like it's been hammered to with an inch of its life. And some blobs of liquid gasket sealant on the odd chain link from careless reassembly.

    The previous person was sloppy had no respect for this engine, didn't have the right tools, or the correct knowledge.

    The chain rails look like they have been replaced and look good. It looks like the vanos has been worked on too. I'm guessing this guy has maybe also replaced the buna seals but I wouldn't trust that.

    My guess was that this guy not having the proper tools simply didn't time the engine properly. I bought a timing kit -£'s :( and figured step one would be to check the timing. The vanos pistons did not appear to be fully closed and there was no continuity in the pins. I closed them off fully (repeatedly) and checked for continuity on pins (only 2 of three pins worked) torqued up best I could (I don't have a left hand torque wrench) rotated the engine by hand rechecked and it all seemed good. (Basically I followed the bmw basiean instructions)


    Continuity is not required so I would not be alarmed - they just need to be rotated counter clock wise all the way. They will stop - not a ton of force - but they will stop. Do it a few times.

    Battery clicked clicked clicked wouldn't turn even after charging. Bought a new battery -£'s :( and now the engine turns over but won't start.

    Twice made a very loud and very huge POP!! Not a bang but a huge pop.

    There is the following as a result of slight short cuts when putting it together to check if it starts.

    the silver balance pipe between left and right engine running above the belts isn't properly secured and not fully connected into the block. needs another attempt.

    In the USA the function of these pipes was deleted. In my rebuild of the heads I capped them. You can find caps, I believe 22mm, assuming you can do this there.

    There is 1 cable disconnected in engine bay toward the back which i didn't do and don't know where it goes.

    This may be for your hose heater - not sure but do you have a hose blanket on the PCV hoses on the back of the engine?

    The viscous fan isn't in place.

    The plastic cover for the coils are not on.

    Oil is at the lowest point on dip stick.

    Fuel rail has petrol in it checked by pressing little valve.

    Air filter is not connected or plumbed in.

    Error code p0347 from ODB after clearing and restarting the engine.

    Can I have some opinions and next steps on what I should check/do/redo.

    I had 1 round of checking fuses in all three locations.

    If the vanos is still wrecked inside id expect it to start but sound like sh*t again. If oil level was too low to pressure the vanos again id expect it to start just sound horrible.

    Okay - were it me I would start from scratch after checking the cylinder wall condition and doing a compression test (also need to eliminate bent valves). If the block checks out and your valves look like they are not bent move forward otherwise source a new engine if the block is scratched. You can fix the valves, not that bad a job - like a head gasket.

    Next - Take off the upper and lower timing covers and redo everything. This way you can make sure you don't have a problem caused by the prior poor mechanic and you can eliminate incorrect timing. The Vanos condition concerns me. Were they rebuilt? I suppose gouges don't really matter if the rest of the unit is sound. One way to test if they were rebuilt with Beisian seals is to see if the plastic seal is all the way at the lip and does not move (read his rebuild page) and you will understand. You can also take them apart per Beisian instructions. Again, since the workmanship you see is so bad, I would not want to try to fix things near the end of the process when the front could be just as bad or worse. Building on sand has a huge risk.

    You can test the solenoids to see if they click with 12V, but from what you describe they may be crushed internally. Try to find a picture of one that has been cut open on the web to see what kind of exterior beating they can endure and still function.

    Assuming all this is done - then see how the engine behaves. Right now you have so many issues that have to be eliminated. Starting from scratch may fix it all.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
    DeepEndLearner likes this.
  3. DeepEndLearner

    DeepEndLearner Member

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    Right step 1, cylinder compression test and endoscope for damaged walls.

    Can the bore be re-honed or is that major money not cost effective.
     
  4. DeepEndLearner

    DeepEndLearner Member

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    I've replaced bent valves once on a ford fiesta. I hope that is not the case. A v8 is like working on two engines.
     
  5. kg74

    kg74 Member

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    No - the block is disposable. You can have custom sleeves made, but the cost is way too high. The block is Alusil and is junk if scarred. Nothing off the shelf is affordable if and when available.

    The head gasket/valve job is not that bad - it is maybe two hours more work from a timing guide change to get the heads off.

    A guy on one of the other RR forums had his timing guides fail. "It only made noise for a few seconds" was his claim. I told him to check his engine condition first before buying anything. After pulling the bottom oil pan and not seeing anything but broken plastic guide pieces he pulled a head and saw gouges in the cylinder walls. Some told him to just change the guides - but due to my experience with engine #3 on my RR - he looked further and found disaster.

    I could make a three hour saga on my RR and its four engines. Bring people to tears - uplifting and crushing - a movie for the ages.
     
    DeepEndLearner likes this.
  6. DeepEndLearner

    DeepEndLearner Member

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    Ive ordered an endoscope and mate will be lending me his compression test on Monday. :)
     
  7. DeepEndLearner

    DeepEndLearner Member

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    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
  8. DeepEndLearner

    DeepEndLearner Member

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    Thoughts?
    Only checked one, is this enough details? image.png image.png image.png image.png
     
  9. DeepEndLearner

    DeepEndLearner Member

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    image.jpeg Okay I stopped after 3 Pistons.

    #3 = 93psi
    #2 = 70psi
    #1 = 20psi

    I scoped #1 and I think I could see scoring.

    Now what do I do? Need to consider cost of?
     
  10. DeepEndLearner

    DeepEndLearner Member

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    Also #3 looks dry and #1 looks wet/oily.
     
  11. DeepEndLearner

    DeepEndLearner Member

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  12. kg74

    kg74 Member

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    That last picture you posted does not look good. I think the block may be toast. That is what my engines #2 and #3 looked like. I have seen three similar engine damage situations by owners on a few forums during the last two months.

    Is that the only cylinder showing damage? Pull the oil filter and look at the bottom - any signs of metal sparkle?
     
  13. DeepEndLearner

    DeepEndLearner Member

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    I pulled it out a month ago to look for chain rails. There was no metallic shimmer back then. But someone had definitely been there before me. So they may have cleaned the signs away.

    I'll check the other 5 cylinders tomorrow.

    What are my options?
     
  14. kg74

    kg74 Member

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    Options are not good. The block is Alusil so basically non-servicable. Everything is super expensive on these motors if the block is ruined. Re-sleeve when I looked costs thousands. Pistons and rings are also very expensive. Some say the block is disposable once it is damaged. If not damaged the block will run a long time if cared for semi-properly. The cheapest route unless you have special access to a shop and parts is to buy a new used engine.

    Maybe if it just the one cylinder you can clean it up and do what is needed for that cylinder and hope for the best. I read people who have gouged iron block engines clean them up and live with it. Not saying it will work - not saying it won't. But one cannot just hone the cylinders without the special equipment for Alusil blocks. Plus you will have to pull the piston(s) and clean out any metal from the rings.

    What I did was buy engine #4 that had a blown head gasket. Took a chance on it - it still ran mileage was at about 115,000 miles. I had my original heads machined, did the valve stem seals and seat lapping and did basically a head gasket job with two engines for parts. I swapped out everything from engine #3 which had 3k of miles on my new parts (chain guides mainly). Then I did an engine transplant. Sounds like you may have some good newer parts you can salvage. Not sure on the Vanos - but you should rebuild these unless you score a super low mileage motor.

    If you plan on keeping the RR - start looking for a new used engine. Options are any 4.4l BMW M62Tu - so X5, 7 and 5 series are options. (one guy mentioned trying a 4.6L as it is the same motor but just a different stroke. He believed the computer could be worked with to gain added HP). You will have to move over your oil pump and chain, upper and lower oil pan, I believe valve covers (at least one) and a few other items to make the conversion. With the engine out it is basic and obvious what needs to be moved. It is easy - you just need to pull the engine and buy parts - then wrench away.

    It looks like the prior owner either overheated it, ran it super low on oil, or ran the chain guides down to the point where it was oil starved and killed the cylinders/block (maybe all of them).

    Any used engine will need the chain guides addressed - at the expected age and mileage they are minutes from failure.

    Sorry for the bad news. It has hit me twice so I feel your pain, only double.
     
  15. DeepEndLearner

    DeepEndLearner Member

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    Hi all sorry for my absence. Did compression test on the remaining cylinders 5-8. Absolutely no compression. So I'm guess the timing slipped. This week I opened up the engine and yep! The nut on right hand side vanos came loose. Not having a left hand torque wrench contributed to that. Timing was out by about 90 degrees. All the input valves are bent. Not sure on exhaust valves. Will check later.

    So what I'm thinking is I'll try and fix and put engine back together. Maybe piston 1 can live a little longer. I'll change valves. Use my new rail torque wrench (which works left hand thread) and snug it all up nice.

    But I still got to figure out if the vanos seals have been fixed or need replacing.
     
  16. DeepEndLearner

    DeepEndLearner Member

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    I was able to see impact marks of the valves in the carbon on the piston heads. When I looked a 5-8 cyclnders.
     
  17. DeepEndLearner

    DeepEndLearner Member

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    when removing input throttle body I could see fresh clean grease along the seam of the cyclnder head. Someone has had the cylinder heads off and I don't think it has been driven since then. Which is why there was no steering fluid.
     
  18. holidaychicken

    holidaychicken Well-Known Member

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    Will the con rods be ok if the pistons have hit the valves ?
    Your engine sounds like my mates dog after he got it back 6 years after being stolen ....
     
  19. DeepEndLearner

    DeepEndLearner Member

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    I'd imagine so. Valves a very thin compared to the weight and mass of the con rods.
     
  20. holidaychicken

    holidaychicken Well-Known Member

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    Painful experience for you, I did read about 1 person who replaced the liners but can’t remember where, might have been a BMW forum.
    There are dozens of 4.4 RR on eBay as spares or repairs due to timing chain guides, they are dropping like flies.