Td5 Starting Problem

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Zebedee68

Member
Posts
12
Location
Surrey
Hi guys - new here, but long time reader - great board.

To cut a long story short, my 03 110 Td5 has intermittent starting problems - it will catch 1st turn most times, but occasionally is a real dog to start - it will turn over fine, but will only catch after a few minutes of continous turning, and only then reluctantly.

When it's running, it runs fine - very sweet.
Never managed to isolate the starting problem to hot or cold, damp or dry - seems to be no pattern.
I recently had an issue where it just cut out on me (never happened before) on the M25 - the fuel was low (but the light was not on) - it would bump start fine, then cut out again after a while - this happened again and again until I filled up the tank, it was fine all the way home then.

As a result of that, I fitted a new fuel pump, + new diesel filter, and cleaned out the air bleed valve (soaked in petrol for 3 days before refitting, I didn't poke a hole in it) - it started fine, every time, then when I took it for a run - turned it off, did some shopping and came back - it refused to start.

Called out the yellow taxi service - he wasn't amused to find a Td5 - for some reason he reckons they mess up his roadside fix rate figures ;-) he squirted in some carb cleaner and it started (reluctantly, but started!) straight up. (The diesel tank was half full.)

So, ordered and changed the crank position sensor - I've already done the injector loom, I just had a trace of oil in the red plug - but refused to start until I gave the battery a bit of a boost with the starting charger, so no difference.

Any ideas as to what to try next?
This thread https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/td5-fuel-pressure-problem.161412/ has some good info in it, but I'm at a loss.

Ordered a fuel pressure tester, a new air bleed valve & some injector seals - the seals look like quite a big job, anyone in the Surrey/Sussex area can hire me a slide hammer?

Any ideas? totally lost - oh, I've got a big battery on its way, just in case its an electrical issue - if the ecu is being starved when it's trying to start - the battery on it is probably a bit small.

In summary - runs fine mostly, but intermittently hard to start. Had it 2 years, always had this problem, but now seems to be getting worse.
Will start straight away if bumped, or reluctantly if the battery is given a boost or ether added, otherwise not at all.
Changed the injector loom, fitted new fuel pump (makes same noise as before), new crank sensor (no difference).

The plan atm is to fit a new air bleed valve & pressure test - a bit reluctant to change the injector seals given the size of the job and the fact there is no sign of diesel in the oil.

TIA guys, much appreciated.
 
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Change the injector seals. Then see what happens.
There are epically long threads on here about this.
The seals "wear" out! The copper fire seal failing will give the sympton you have.
The O rings failing will put fuel into the oil.
Change the seals, they dont last forever and its not that big a job.
Let us know how it goes.
Mark
 
Change the injector seals. Then see what happens.
There are epically long threads on here about this.
The seals "wear" out! The copper fire seal failing will give the sympton you have.
The O rings failing will put fuel into the oil.
Change the seals, they dont last forever and its not that big a job.
Let us know how it goes.
Mark

Yeah, figured as much - thanks Mark, I was hoping for something simple that I had missed!
The bits should arrive in the next few days, that's my weekend sorted!

Anyone with a removal tool around Surrey/East Sussex?
 
Usually the injectors come out OK with a long Allen key, might be worth reading this before you do them.
http://www.discovery2.co.uk/Injector Seals.html
Take it steady and it's not a hard job, worth taking time to thoroughly clean the injector seats in the head, and run the purge at least twice when it is back together.

That's a great write-up, thanks! Doesn't look too bad IF the bloody things come out ok..
 
Make sure you disconnect the battery before you start work, accidently turning on the ignition after the injectors are removed will be very messy!
When you remove the injectors, set the engine at TDC first, a locking pin is not needed, Nos 1, 3,4,5 can usually be removed without turning the engine from TDC, No2 will need the engine turned a bit.
Ideally you want to remove the fan so you can put a socket on the crank pulley bolt to move the engine round.
Note all your injector codes/position before you remove them!
Mark
 
Job done - success!!!

Total cost, £5!!!
Took about 4hr including tea breaks and a test run.. The biggest/hardest job was cleaning the seats.. Would probably take 2 hours next time.

Number 1 cylinder was leaking - carbon tracks across 1/3 of the washer, and cyl 3 was very close to leaking if it wasn't already.


I haven't got any fan spanners, so a few notes for the next guy who does this:
Easy job to do - just take it steady, one step at a time - a really good job to get familiar with the inside of your Td5..

Check your new washers - any nicks or marks, bin 'em & get a new set..
On my eu3 (green injectors + egr) at least, there is a strange mix of metric and imperial - the injector clamps are a 10mm socket, the rocker shaft needs a 3/8 socket
The injectors are different to what you may have seen before - they don't sieze in position!

Stick it in neutral, handbrake on
Pull the fuel pump fuse or relay (the left hand one of the three under the drivers seat)
Unclip the high pressure fuel feed from the fuel regulator (the top one, left of the intake manifold) - if it's still pressured, you might get a spurt..
Undo the fuel return at the fuel filter (right hand side, rear - might need to undo the one in front of it also)
Catch the runoff in a bucket/small container (won't be much, a pint tops)
This needs to be done to stop the cylinders filling up with diesel when you remove the injectors - if they do, you need to syringe it out, otherwise you will 'hydraulic' the engine and likely bend a con-rod, or at the very least knacker the cat so don't risk it!

Remove the acoustic cover, and take off the rocker cover - don't lose those bloody washers, they are a tenner each!
Unclip the injector wiring plugs, and lift the harness to one side (no need to take right out)
Undo the lock rings and slacken off the the injector tappets 5 turns - you NEED to reset the tappets when refitting..
Undo & remove the rocker shaft - untighten center out in stages - don't just do each bolt at a time..

One injector at a time (so you can't put them back in the wrong order!)
Undo the clamp bolt and lift the clamp out
Use Mark's tent peg, or I used a standard 5mm allen key - extend the long side with a 5mm socket & extension piece to gently lever up the injector - there is a sweet spot as close to the injector itself as you can get (don't lever under the solenoid) - doesn't need a hammer - these are not like the old style injectors that sieze in, all that is holding it is the rubber o-ring seal..
Remove the copper washer with pliers, clean off the gunk with petrol etc. - don't scrape it, but it needs to be spotless and take off the old o-ring
Fit the new o-ring - it goes in the TOP groove!! and slide on the new washer - make sure it seats all the way down, if not, clean more!
Use cotton buds dipped in petrol to clean the injector seats on the head - again, they need to be spotless!
Slather the new o-ring with engine oil - there is plenty in the head ;-) and refit the injector - no need to push it all the way in, just enough to locate it properly
Put the clamp back on and screw it down - if you've oiled the o-ring it will seat itself
Torque up the clamp - 32Nm
Repeat for the other 4..

Locate the rocker shaft back on and tighten it down, centre out, in stages..
Give the engine a quick crank on the starter motor - you DID pull the fuel pump relay, right? and listen for anything not right..
If it looks & sounds ok, torque down the rocker shaft to 33Nm - center out..

Now - you've replaced the seals, so the injector will NOT sit where it sat before, so you NEED to reset the injector tappets..

Crank the starter until a cam lobe is at max height - so pushing the injector all the way - tighten the tappet screw all the way down until it is solid (you will feel it) then back off 1 full turn, hold the screw there and tighten the lock nut
Repeat for each injector - if you just tickle the ignition key, it will turn just enough - usually a cylinder will stop at TDC (actually just a bit after, but near enough) and you can set that tappet.

When you've done all 5, crank the starter and watch and listen for anything not right..

If it's all good, refit the rocker cover, reconnect the fuel hoses, and plug back in the fuel pump relay

Turn on the ignition, but don't crank the engine - give the fuel pump 30seconds to get up to pressure
Ignition off, then back on again and initiate purge mode by pressing the accelerator 5 times
Try and start it!
You might need to purge a couple of times, but it shouldn't take more than that..

Job done - give it a road test and pour yourself a well earned beer!


Just one question - before I took off the rocker shaft, there was a bit of loose play in each rocker that was at the lowest point on the cam, then when I refitted everything and reset the tappets there is no play now - the engine is a lot quieter lolol I reckon I've got adjusted correctly, but should there be a little play, anyone else taken note?

Total cost - £5 for the seals and o-rings..

Spent £40 on a new fuel pump, £12 on the air bleed valve - neither of which I needed
Spent £30 on a new injector harness and rocker gasket, which I definitely needed althought the harness wasn't causing any problem (yet)

God alone knows what the cost of fault finding that would have been if I'd taken it to the garage - £1k plus at least..

I'll see how it goes for the next few days, but given the way it is starting now (instant! and the fuel pump isn't yowling half as much) I reckon that's cured it, thanks for all your help guys, much appreciated!
 
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if it refuses to start again. Try bump starting it as the starter motor can cause spikes which stops the crank sensor picking up the engine is rotating and stops the injectors firing. The easy start gets it running and then it opens the injectors.
I had this even after I'd done the seals
 
if it refuses to start again. Try bump starting it as the starter motor can cause spikes which stops the crank sensor picking up the engine is rotating and stops the injectors firing. The easy start gets it running and then it opens the injectors.
I had this even after I'd done the seals
Cheers gaz - I bought a decent sized battery and a few earth straps just in case - that's the problem with this fault, there is so much that *could* cause it, if you are coming into it new then it's really hard to pinpoint it..
who would have guessed that a leaky injector leads to a failure to start when the tank was 1/4 full instead of 1/2 full?
 
Once you have done a few hundred miles go back under the cam cover and re-torque the injector clamps as they have been known to come loose as the coppper injector sealing washers settle in. Also reset the tappet clearances as they will have opened up a tad for the same reasons.
 
Cheers gaz - I bought a decent sized battery and a few earth straps just in case - that's the problem with this fault, there is so much that *could* cause it, if you are coming into it new then it's really hard to pinpoint it..
who would have guessed that a leaky injector leads to a failure to start when the tank was 1/4 full instead of 1/2 full?

I don't mean jump starting it from another battery. I mean bump starting it by either parking it facing down hill or getting a tow from another veichle.

next time you have the problem turn the key on till all your dash lights and fuel pump are on and then get it moving from a push/tow/gravity till 10 mph or so and select 2nd gear and bring up the clutch quickly. If it starts it is your starter.

I took mine to a local steep hill and turned it off a few times. Everytime I couldn't start it off the key, but it would bump start.
 
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Same problem. Bet its worse when lower than 3/4 tank?

Forger injector seals and forget changing the fuel pump...its all bollox that cost you money. ask yourself how can a copper seal under pressure and compressed just start to leak if not disturbed and if your fuel pump runs then cuts out its reached pressure???? Surely
Take the fuel filter housing off and completely in bits. Inside you will find a little orange rubber bladder valve....thats the snag.

Change the fuel filter housing (£110) in there is a little orange bladder valve that you will not find on any Land rover drawing. It stops fuel leaking back to the tank when stopped. You cannot buy it seperate so dont even try.

Changed mine and now starts every time

Check my other posts and there are pictures of the little fellow.
 
Harry, I think your being a bit harsh about changing injector seals, many threads on here have ended with changing the seals resolving the problem!
And yes a copper washer will fail, its being subjected to heat, other parts are expanding/contracting, the copper will lose its sealing ability and will eventually leak.
Shifty is right about re-torquing/checking stuff after a few hundred miles, my adjusters needed tweeking after my recent head change, not done the clamp bolts yet but I will.
Mark
 
Harsh?? Seals are only one source of a problem, changing people think cures the snag however other fuel related issues now have gone neglected and overlooked.
How many victimised people have spent money on a fuel pump (NEVER BUY CHEAP AFTERMARKET PUMPS THEY WILL NOT LAST) or seal change as told it was at fault etc only to find it did not cure the snag? Forums are a great idea but face facts many people are " arm chair engineers" and never actually think a problem out but go straight for the obvious they have read. Changing seals on a Td5 requires skill and the correct tools. Yes you can bodge it to get out the injectors...many do and get away with it. However it requires more than a simple washer. Correct cleaning of surfaces, not handling injectors especially tips, buying genuine Land Rover seals as buy aftermarket crap and your asking for trouble, knowing what to look for on a tip and what may or may not effect spray pattern. Personally I would endoscope my pistons and valves whilst injetors are out as this gives a great indication of injector spray pattern. Land Rover Td5 injectors are very complicated and delicate if abused out of the engine. Putting them back in the same pot is a must as how many people know each injector is mapped to the ECU.......30 to 40% maybe?? See not all that easy if you look at the whole picture and many people end up fooking up there bus.

I changed injector seals .....waste of time same scenario only 3 months later. I agree engines expand at different rates but having worked on and built some of the largest diesel engines in the World this is factored in and the torque of the bolt subsequently correct to allow a "sandwich " effect thus maintaining a seal...... head gaskets for example steel block ally head....you never change that only if you cook it and that takes massive pressures unevenly up to 12000 times a minute over 5 cylinders...up down, comressed, slight vaccum...hot then cold.......just like a woman I suppose!

I bet you you have never had the fuel filter housing completely to bits and checked that have you? Try it but be prepared to buy a new one as I guarentee the thing will break.
Its made of a crappy cast alloy that will become pourous and perish over time...think where it lives.....who in their right mind would put a fuel filter next to a rear wheel on a machine that is designed to do what a Defender does?? Not one of Land Rovers finest moment obviously a Friday afternoon idea by a moron, anyhow take one to bits and you will see the orange non return valve made of rubber that deteriorates over time and begins to pass....Land Rover do not even have it as a part or acknowledge its even there on any drawings.

This I believe is the source of many Td5 fuel problems. Filter housing becoming pourous , deterioration and failure of internal components.

Rubber hates modern fuel, you will not find any none nitrided rubber products in any cars now. I build vintage bikes and you want to see what modern fuel does to Amal carbs it trashes them..... luckily you can buy kits now but it costs.
 
Hi I have to say there is almost nothing on your post that I disagree with!
I do base my comments on my own experience, incl a complete stripdown and diagnosing injector faults, but I agree the TD5 is not a DIY friendly beast!
LR design and quality of some parts/systems is pretty bad!
Def modern "greener" diesel with whatever it has in it, seems to attack a lot of previously fuel resistant materials!
Mark
 
Harry - the seals were definately the problem, the 110 is now fixed and running like a dream. You could see the carbon traces on the cylinders that were leaking - tiny bits of carbon get forced under the washer, which then opens it up to allow more in, and the problem gets progressively worse over time - the service book recommends an injector overhaul every 100000 miles, it is an issue that was anticipated by the designers.

I checked the duck bill valve before I started, no problems with it, and yes - the fuel filter housing and placement is a piece of sh*t, lol

The issue with modern fuel is bio-diesel (or even vegetable oil) - even at a 5% mix you need nitrile seals - plant based oils will eat natural rubber. Most 'modern' diesels (euro 4 and on) have the right spec, but the Td5 was designed and built to run only on diesel sourced from dinosaurs ;-)
 
Hi, just done the Discovery TD5 injector seals and washers, put everything back, purged, ran it up, started on the button, left it over night, again started on the button. Drove 400 yards cut out, failed to start like a fuel problem. Purged it again, still failed then suddenly locked up like it was hydraulicing, I’m assuming fuel now on top of piston.
I’m about to start stripping again to find out but thought I’d give you all a shout in case there’s something less drastic ....... in advance, with thanks
 
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