Disco 2 Starting problems and cutting out

Got a 2002 disco td5.

Ever since I got it it's been a pain to start in the mornings, would have to prime the starter 3 or 4 times and then fire it up.

Today it decided to cut out down the motorway and then again at the bottom of the street and took about 10 minutes to get it started again.

First thought coming to mind is the injector seals but before I go ripping the rocker cover off, is there any thing else which may cause this?

I had a similar problem, it turned out to be the fuel filter. Maybe the relay tray has water in it, causing short in circuits?
Possible pump failing?
Good luck.

Suppose it's worth a try on the filter. The fuel pump is very loud when priming, but I'm new to 4x4s so assumed a big 2.5 litre engine may have a loud pump

Hi
I have to say, I don't really hear my pump. If I'm at the side of the motor, I will hear it start up but then it is quite quiet (other than a hum).
The poor starting, in the morning, would suggest the pump is failing to get adequate fuel to the engine. Worth a check, before you start stripping the injectors, etc.
Access to the pump is pretty easy, after raising the carpet in the back.

hipwell said:

Suppose it's worth a try on the filter. The fuel pump is very loud when priming, but I'm new to 4x4s so assumed a big 2.5 litre engine may have a loud pump

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Ok, think I can help you with this one having gone through it myself and solved it with the help of various people in the know on here. Firstly is your oil level rising and smelling of diesel if so rubber O rings on injectors almost certainly the cause. Mine wasn't and I had starting issues which went from trouble cold starting (changed glow plugs no change) to trouble starting hot or cold and then onto misfire and engine dying. Each time went through the fuel priming routine, very noisy pump as it is firstly pumping air until started with massive cloud of White smoke, ran for about 10 mins then misfire and engine cut again. Before you consider changing anything else do the injector seals and copper washers. Yours sounds exactly like mine, what happens is combustion gas forces its way past one or more of the copper washers (probably only one) and gets into the fuel rail in the head causing fuel starvation. While you have the cover off I would suggest you also change the injector loom which is not expensive and another potential source of trouble although not I suspect in this case. Hope this helps. By the way all that fuel system priming and changing the seals and washers on the injectors will result in diesel in your oil anyway so budget to change that too.

Hi Hipwell, I'm in the same world of pain with my Disco and it is driving me crackers. Have a search for threads with the word 'Daisy' in them and you will get the back story. The short version:

I have:
Changed the fuel pump - this was my first move and a conclusion I wish I had not jumped to. The new pump is not OEM, it takes ages to get up to pressure and it makes a hell of a racket even on a good day.
Changed the fuel non return valve and air bleed valve on the fuel filter manifold
Changed the fuel filter, as I do every 10,000km anyway
Changed the crank shaft sensor - if it fails the engine will not start at all. If the engine starts at all it's working
Cleaned the ECU plug twice
Checked the ECU itself and there is no oil in it
Cleaned the EGR valve
Cleaned the MAF, air pressure and air temperature sensors
Changed the injector harness
Changed the wastegate modulator
Checked the turbo pipework from the turbo to the intercooler
Taken to drenching the wastegate actuator with WD40 which seems to make a difference

I haven't (yet):
Changed any fuel lines
Changed the wastegate actuator
Changed the turbo
Changed the injector seals

Daisy has 180,000miles on the clock, has no oil leaks and until now hasn't missed a beat (I bought her in '07 at 24,000 miles). Fuel consumption is about 10L/100km and the only work done on the engine has been to change the injector harness, the cylinder head welch plugs and the fuel pressure regulator. Oil and filters get changed every 10,000km. Daisy is completely standard and the local Land Rover dealer failed to find any fault codes. There is no diesel smell in the engine or the sump and the oil level is not rising. Up to 50 mph she is fine and on a good day shows full power but good days are few and far between at the moment.

Having spent an unhealthy amount of time on the 'net with this I am beginning to think there are several different faults that can produce the same symptoms. I would not advise jumping to change the fuel pump, it is by far the most expensive part on my list above and in my case as soon as I fix the problem once and for all I am refitting a new Land Rover pump regardless of cost.

I wish I could point to a dead cert solution to your problem but I haven't found mine yet. Every one of the actions I have taken has been cited on one forum or another as the solution to that owner's particular situation. On the bright side, none of the jobs above, with the possible exception of changing the fuel lines, is especially difficult (although injector seals needs a special tool).

I am sorry this hasn't found you a solution but I thought it worth letting you know that I am further down the same trail as you and what I have learned so far.

Not sure if this is any good to you, but may be worth a look at parts 1 , 2 and 3.



Cheers

This problem seems to be a penance on any TD5 owner, I had the "won't start" story, last year have a look here may be some help:
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/td5-fuel-pressure-problem.161412/page-3#post-3718090
But it did not cut out.
Last week I bit the bullet and had a new chassis fitted, went to pick it up and it cut out 3 times on the way home just as you describe here, ran well on the A1 at 65 - 70 mph, cut out on the first roundabout.
Set me thinking that OK this is something which has been disturbed with the strip down. Engine cutting out says to me that fuel is being cut off, and I wondered if the pump is getting blocked by muck in the tank which has been stirred up, during the strip down, or has the pressure regulator got some dirt into it?

Daisy driver when you put in the new pump was there any muck on the fine mesh on the bottom of the pump?
As I mention in the other thread I suspect more of these pumps get changed only to find "that's not it" wasted my money.

I am not well at the moment but soon as I can I will take off the filter housing and give it a thorough check, may replace the bleed valve again, I also want to look closly at the non return valve, fit a new filter, if that doesn't work I am going to take the pump out clean it, and carefully check all the pipe work and connectors.


Edit
Also look here :
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-ro...the-little-orange-chappy.296215/#post-3684965

DaisyDriver said:

I haven't (yet):
Changed any fuel lines
Changed the wastegate actuator
Changed the turbo
Changed the injector seals

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I suspect like me you have failed to change the cheapest item on your list which is the injector seals.
The pump is probably noisy as it is trying to push air, mine was incredibly so until it built up pressure so it was changed - no difference.
Replaced the air bleed valve - no difference.
Replaced the fuel filter - no difference.
I had a slight amount of oil in the ecu plug so had the loom changed - no difference.
Had the glow plugs changed - no difference.
Cleaned and checked the connection of every sensor on the engine I could find - no difference.
The fuel lines had already been replaced.
Mine had no fault codes showing.
Had the injector seals/washers replaced with genuine LR ones at about £30 for the lot - problem solved (until the next one lol)
I had no smell of diesel in the oil or rising levels, I changed the oil after the seals were done as the number of purging cycles I had done to get started meant the engine had been flooded a few times plus some diesel must have dripped down the bores when the seals were done.
My advice would be to get the seals and washers done first, not a big job to a decent mechanic and see what it's like then.

raywin said:

This problem seems to be a penance on any TD5 owner, I had the "won't start" story, last year have a look here may be some help:
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/td5-fuel-pressure-problem.161412/page-3#post-3718090
But it did not cut out.
Last week I bit the bullet and had a new chassis fitted, went to pick it up and it cut out 3 times on the way home just as you describe here, ran well on the A1 at 65 - 70 mph, cut out on the first roundabout.
Set me thinking that OK this is something which has been disturbed with the strip down. Engine cutting out says to me that fuel is being cut off, and I wondered if the pump is getting blocked by muck in the tank which has been stirred up, during the strip down, or has the pressure regulator got some dirt into it?

Daisy driver when you put in the new pump was there any muck on the fine mesh on the bottom of the pump?
As I mention in the other thread I suspect more of these pumps get changed only to find "that's not it" wasted my money.

I am not well at the moment but soon as I can I will take off the filter housing and give it a thorough check, may replace the bleed valve again, I also want to look closly at the non return valve, fit a new filter, if that doesn't work I am going to take the pump out clean it, and carefully check all the pipe work and connectors.


Edit
Also look here :
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-ro...the-little-orange-chappy.296215/#post-3684965

Click to expand...

Hi Raywin

The pump was clean as a whistle when it came out. The only time it ever made any audible noise was on repriming the system after a fuel filter change. Now I have a constant whining coming from under the boot floor. I share your view that a lot of perfectly good pumps are being pointlessly changed. David

DaisyDriver said:

Hi Raywin

The pump was clean as a whistle when it came out. The only time it ever made any audible noise was on repriming the system after a fuel filter change. Now I have a constant whining coming from under the boot floor. I share your view that a lot of perfectly good pumps are being pointlessly changed. David

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Sorry but I feel you pump was not the real cause here.
I am learning this system through pain, and one thing I can tell you is that if the pump whines like that it is air in the system, continuous whining means that you have air trapped in the system, or continuously pulling into the system and that will be related to your main starting problem, on a better note put thoughts of the turbo and wastgate to the bottom of your list.
I have read lots of theories on this system but one thing is clear the pump delivers more that 4 bar pressure to the head and the pressure regulator maintains the 4 bar at the injectors by venting over pressure back to the tank hence the filter gets hot when you have been running a while. So any leak must be on the suction side Or it would leak diesel out, not air in.
Second source of gasses in the system is the copper washers on the injectors, when the cylinder fires it creates tremendous pressure and we rely on the washer to hold that back, when it fails then it allows gas to go into the diesel common rail in the cylinder head, causing problems.
People feel that the o rings on the injectors are the problem but again they are subject to the fuel at 4 bar pressure one side and atmospheric pressure on the other when the ignition is on and if they leak it would be diesel out into the rocker box, this is when you find the oil level increasing. I saw something where someone had a crack in the injector pocket, and he said take of the rocker cover and turn on the ignition you can see the diesel oozing out of the crack into the head where it mixes with the oil.
Trying to think logicaly here, I would turn on your ignition and run the purge system at least once, listen for the whine of the pump does it stop after the purge? don't start it turn it off and leave it at least overnight, when you switch on the ignition next time listen if there is air in there then I think you have a bad pipe or fitting pulling air.
If it does not stop whining after a couple of purges then I would suspect the connections to the pump or filter, which will have been disturbed when installing the new pump.
My biggest advances were when I changed the injector seals, and when I changed the air bleed valve on filer housing, I also bought a new pressure regulator and o rings, which seemed to make an improvement, and things were OK until recently when I had a couple of won't start events, culminating in the cut outs which I experienced bringing it home last week, soon as I can I intend to seriously get into this and see what I can find.

Yorkie57 said:

I suspect like me you have failed to change the cheapest item on your list which is the injector seals.
The pump is probably noisy as it is trying to push air, mine was incredibly so until it built up pressure so it was changed - no difference.
Replaced the air bleed valve - no difference.
Replaced the fuel filter - no difference.
I had a slight amount of oil in the ecu plug so had the loom changed - no difference.
Had the glow plugs changed - no difference.
Cleaned and checked the connection of every sensor on the engine I could find - no difference.
The fuel lines had already been replaced.
Mine had no fault codes showing.
Had the injector seals/washers replaced with genuine LR ones at about £30 for the lot - problem solved (until the next one lol)
I had no smell of diesel in the oil or rising levels, I changed the oil after the seals were done as the number of purging cycles I had done to get started meant the engine had been flooded a few times plus some diesel must have dripped down the bores when the seals were done.
My advice would be to get the seals and washers done first, not a big job to a decent mechanic and see what it's like then.

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Hi Yorkie

Did you need the special tool to lift out the injectors or is there a safe workaround?

David

Change the injector seals!
They should be regarded as service item, nothing to be "dreaded"!
Its very easy to change them, you dont need any special tools.
Ive had mine in and out a few times, I always use a long 4mm allen key and gently lever them out.
There is a nice series of pics here: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/124437-how-difficult-change-injector-seals-td5.html

Take your time, work methodically and cleanly.
You can change the rocker shaft bolts if you want, I did last time, but if you have a decent torque wrench you shouldnt have to worry about them breaking.
RAVE does say to remove any access fuel out of the cylinders, Ive not had to do this.
Change them every two years and save yourself lots of agro.
You can check the injector pockets for cracks at the same time, although if your oil level is not rising, your head is probably ok.
Mark

markomate2 said:

Change the injector seals!
They should be regarded as service item, nothing to be "dreaded"!
Its very easy to change them, you dont need any special tools.
Ive had mine in and out a few times, I always use a long 4mm allen key and gently lever them out.
There is a nice series of pics here: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/124437-how-difficult-change-injector-seals-td5.html

Take your time, work methodically and cleanly.
You can change the rocker shaft bolts if you want, I did last time, but if you have a decent torque wrench you shouldnt have to worry about them breaking.
RAVE does say to remove any access fuel out of the cylinders, Ive not had to do this.
Change them every two years and save yourself lots of agro.
You can check the injector pockets for cracks at the same time, although if your oil level is not rising, your head is probably ok.
Mark

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That's a good link Mark, I used a long Allen key to get my injectors out with no proplem, I pushed slightly on the opposite side of the injector to try and take it out of the pocket square, but they all came out with little effort.
Just wanted to mention take care to put them back in the same position they were removed from, it's important.

Hi Raywin!
Yes plenty of lube, new oil is ok, slide it in gently, then push it firmly home!
Dont use the clamp to force it in.
Mark

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Well I took it to a well known specialist in Sheffield called doug dransfield.

They had the car for 2 weeks, said they checked everything, told us they replaced the ecu?? Why?? Took car home. Still doesn't start properly and still cuts out. So i will be going back to get my £260 back and changing the injector seals myself.

I was reluctant to change them as i read you need a special tool to get them out.

Could be worth checking your FPR as well.
That was the problem I had with poor starting but mine didn't cut out.

So you haven't changed your seals yet?
They had your vehicle for two weeks, did they expect it to repair itself if they just left it!
Sorry to say it but I wouldn't trust many dealer/garages to really diagnose LR faults!
Most of them just cant get their heads around basic common sense troubleshooting.
Mark

markomate2 said:

So you haven't changed your seals yet?
They had your vehicle for two weeks, did they expect it to repair itself if they just left it!
Sorry to say it but I wouldn't trust many dealer/garages to really diagnose LR faults!
Most of them just cant get their heads around basic common sense troubleshooting.
Mark

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Well I was hoping they would know the fault as they claim to be a land rover specialist and have been for donkeys years, and change them anyway but almost 300 quid later and I still have the same 2 faults. Not sure how I stand with them, I'm away until Sunday now so will take it back to them next week.

However I will change the injector seals and harness myself once I have come to an agreement with the garage

Can the injectors be levered out without removing the rocker shaft as per this guide?

From what i can work out he only had to remove the rocket shaft as the tool he used to get the injectors out is massive. If I use an l shaped Allen key can you get them out without dismantling the rocker shaft?

http://www.discovery2.co.uk/Injector Seals.html