Starter grinding timing conundrum

Bizarre set of circumstances - has anyone seen/heard of/experienced this? I have a brand new starter which worked fine once first installed. I subsequently put in electronic ignition and, when adjusting timing with a light, found timing to be heavily advanced. I put it back to TDC based on timing marks and car runs much smoother and no fuel smells as before. However, when cranking, there is often a horrible grinding noise from the starter which often stops the cranking cycle in its tracks. I’ve done plenty of research and people talk about ‘kickback’ with too much advance so there appears to be a link between timing and the grinding but I had retarded the timing to TDC which makes me confused. Not sure what to try and grinding noise is very unsettling. Any ideas?

Try setting it to a few degrees BTDC, e.g. 4. I've read a lot about people setting series engines to tdc and it confuses me. I know there's a lot of science about flame propergation and it being reliant upon compression pressure and octane rating but series have old engines and you have to take into account all of the wear and slack of the various relevant components, unless of course your engine has been completely rebuilt. Wear of your timing chain will make stone timing a bit inaccurate. Also, are your tappets set correctly?

Col

I found that once close the final adjustment of 21/4 petrol was best done by ear.

Thanks Col. I’ll try that. I’m quite new to mechanics so haven’t plucked up courage to remove rocker and check valve clearances yet. I need to however as have a leaking rocket gasket but all the radiator pipe work prevents easy removal. I am keen to learn however - is there a reason why you think more advanced would stop the grinding and what in your mind might be causing it?

thspeller said:

Thanks Col. I’ll try that. I’m quite new to mechanics so haven’t plucked up courage to remove rocker and check valve clearances yet. I need to however as have a leaking rocket gasket but all the radiator pipe work prevents easy removal. I am keen to learn however - is there a reason why you think more advanced would stop the grinding and what in your mind might be causing it?

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The grinding noise is a new one on me but mis-timing might cause the starter to stall, I have a similar issue on myS3. I've changed the earths, changed the starter and changed the battery, all of which make it start easier but only for a short while then it goes back to being difficult. I haven't yet done the timing, it's on my list of things to try. What sort of grinding noise do you get? Do you try starting it with the clutch depressed?

Col

I’ve not tried depressing the clutch but it’s a really nasty metal on metal grind. Like you were grinding gearbox gears. The grinding has occurred since the installation of electronic ignition and retarding of timing (it was miles advanced before). The starter is new and worked without issue with the old distributor. I just wish I could understand the link. A lot of people comment about grinding with over advanced timing (i.e. the starter is fighting the combustion forces on the piston) but this is the other way around.

Sounds like the teeth are worn on the starter ring of the flywheel and starter cog can't get to engage properly. Next time it does it, engage fourth gear and rock the car to turn the flywheel a few degrees before trying to start it again.

Col

I'm a bit old fashioned, mostly cos I'm old, but I was always told to depress the clutch when starting. The main reason is that it takes a bit of drag out of the transmission system and also it prevents embarrassment if you've left it in gear. I always leave manual cars in gear when I park ever since the handbrake cable snapped on my old escort mk1 and it rolled down a hill.

Col

Hi Team - need some diagnosis brain storming for a Series 3 as still no progress on this one. As a reminder, the problem is an occasional nasty grinding noise when my 2.25 petrol is turned over. This leads to an abrupt stopping of the engine turnover. Sometimes happens / sometimes not. Relevant info: once started, runs beautifully. New starter, new HT leads, new distributor, new sparks, new fuel pump and delivery system. Crucially, the problem doesn’t occur when engine turned over with power to sparks disconnected (I.e. I don’t think it’s starter / flywheel interaction issue). I did the valve clearances and that seemed to improve matters. I have a suspicion it’s related to the engine timing. Could a cylinder fire a piston the wrong way for example and violently fight against the rotation created by the starter? Maybe if timing too advanced? That’s what it feels like but don’t know if that’s possible and I had thought it was TDC however. It’s a really nasty grind so keen to diagnose. All thoughts welcome!!? Let’s get to the bottom of it. Tom

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/dodgy-series-starter-prob.346540/

Have a look here at sound of mine, I didn’t get to bottom of it but swapped for a 200 tdi one I had and it’s sorted it, it was starting to damage teeth , I noticed some end play in the series starter which might have been the cause

That’s pretty much exactly what mine is doing. It’s a new starter though as per the manual for a 2.25 (branded 2.3) petrol from an early ninety. What was the solution in the end?

I never got to a solution having fitted a working starter , however I think the correct operation is to send out the pinion gear to engage with flywheel teeth and when it’s engaged then the starter motor should turn the engine just after

With my faulty one I’m thinking when the solenoid activates the pinion gear its also turning at the same time so the pinion teeth are clashing and jamming on flywheel teeth without being fully engaged

have you got a pre=engaged starter or an enertia type as the ring gear may be the wrong type for the starter

Hi All - UPDATE. I tried retarding timing and there’s no improvement in the violent grinding on starting. I retarded all the way to a carb blowback so reckon that is ruled out. One thing I did notice is that if you try hand cranking, it gets very stiff at certain places (I assume top of the compression stroke). It almost feels like the starter can’t push through these and just grinds to a halt. To recap - the starter is almost new, there’s a 068 battery with 560ah (Voltage seems good), it’s running at TDC timing (checker with strobe). I’m just out of ideas and going a bit spare. With the distributor disconnected, the starter turns over fine (no issues). It is worth noting that the engine has always had to turn over a fair few times (hot or cold) before it starts - never immediately on key. Once going it is sweet as anything. Am beginning to despair somewhat.... help!!?

take starter off and have a ,post some pics

Well now this is getting VERY INTERESTING. I filmed the engine on a GoPro and the results are that.... when it grinds, the engine is turning the wrong direction (!!) before violently correcting itself. The piston must be being forced down the wrong way on startup. Take a look!! The question comes - how to fix and what on earth is causing this. Here is one video (normal turnover with coil disconnected), then one with the grinding - watch slowly - the engine starts to turn correctly, then sent back the wrong way - then violently righting itself. I feel we’re making progress but what is causing this!!? To summarise - new starter, new carb, new powerspark dizzy, new leads, new coil, even compressions. Timing set with a stobe at 750rpm (without vacuum) at 0 TDC. Engine is an emission controlled 8:1 2.25 (branded 2.3 from early ninety). What do you think team!? Am sure we can crack this!

General noise:

Closeup Normal /disconnected:

closeup coil connected/grinding:

I wonder if this could be relevant. Might be signs of arcing across dizzy cap - cylinders 3 and 4. If only on starting, might explain why faint. Any help, much appreciated. Tom

thspeller said:

I wonder if this could be relevant. Might be signs of arcing across dizzy cap - cylinders 3 and 4. If only on starting, might explain why faint. Any help, much appreciated. Tom

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I don't think that is any sign of arcing. Have you tried starting the engine with the starter handle. I seem to remember in the 1960's it was possible to start an engine in the opposite direction but I can't remember the details. Is your vehicle negative earth and if so is the battery connected the correct way?

Col

HT leads in the wrong order, maybe?

I think you can only run a 2 stroke engine the wrong way, by 'reversing;' the ignition timing before spinning it the other way. On a 4 stroke, the valve timings would be wrong.

Are you sure it’s not an optical illusion see it sometimes on plane propellers