Re: heating oil as fuel

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E

EMB

Guest
Mr.Nice. wrote:
> I've been told that you can run a diesel engine on domestic heating
> oil.
> I don't intend trying it as it would be naughty but is this true?
> he said he mixes it with a quarter diesel.

It's near enough the same stuff, but with a red dye in it. You don't
want the excise boys catching you running it though - you'll certainly
get a fine and you may get a holiday.

http://www.sdc.org.uk/general/features/feature_fuel.htm


--
EMB
change two to the number to reply
 
On or around Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:21:55 +1200, EMB <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Mr.Nice. wrote:
>> I've been told that you can run a diesel engine on domestic heating
>> oil.
>> I don't intend trying it as it would be naughty but is this true?
>> he said he mixes it with a quarter diesel.
>
>It's near enough the same stuff, but with a red dye in it. You don't
>want the excise boys catching you running it though - you'll certainly
>get a fine and you may get a holiday.
>
>http://www.sdc.org.uk/general/features/feature_fuel.htm

there are in fact 2 classes of heating oil commonly sold, C2 and D, and
diesel engines will technically run on either, and also on AVTUR, (AViation
TURbine fuel) hence why all the military contracts are now for diesel
engines.

However, it doesn't have the same additive pack in it, which will mean more
emissions, and less lubrication of the pump, and eventual failures of all
kinds.

The C2 oil ain't red, but don't let that fool you; it's got chemical markers
in it, as indeed so has the red stuff.

 
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:42:33 +0100, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On or around Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:21:55 +1200, EMB <[email protected]>
>enlightened us thusly:
>
>>Mr.Nice. wrote:
>>> I've been told that you can run a diesel engine on domestic heating
>>> oil.
>>> I don't intend trying it as it would be naughty but is this true?
>>> he said he mixes it with a quarter diesel.
>>
>>It's near enough the same stuff, but with a red dye in it. You don't
>>want the excise boys catching you running it though - you'll certainly
>>get a fine and you may get a holiday.
>>
>>http://www.sdc.org.uk/general/features/feature_fuel.htm
>
>there are in fact 2 classes of heating oil commonly sold, C2 and D, and
>diesel engines will technically run on either, and also on AVTUR, (AViation
>TURbine fuel) hence why all the military contracts are now for diesel
>engines.
>
>However, it doesn't have the same additive pack in it, which will mean more
>emissions, and less lubrication of the pump, and eventual failures of all
>kinds.
>
>The C2 oil ain't red, but don't let that fool you; it's got chemical markers
>in it, as indeed so has the red stuff.


There is also a marker chemical as well as the dye that shows up under
chromatographic analysis as a steep spike even when diluted with fresh
revenue based road diesel for some time afterwards.
If you get caught, even if your fuel doesn't look pink, any sample
will still give a peak at the timed interval during analysis and it's
up to you to prove how few miles you used non-revenue fuel for.
The customs and excise might even let you buy your vehicle back if you
are lucky...

Dan
 
Do you actually have people going around sampling your fuel?

Or is this an urban myth?

Seems hard to believe.

I can understand them checking fuel retailers but individuals?

Ron
Emu Plains, Australia


"Daniel A" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:42:33 +0100, Austin Shackles
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On or around Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:21:55 +1200, EMB <[email protected]>
> >enlightened us thusly:
> >
> >>Mr.Nice. wrote:
> >>> I've been told that you can run a diesel engine on domestic heating
> >>> oil.
> >>> I don't intend trying it as it would be naughty but is this true?
> >>> he said he mixes it with a quarter diesel.
> >>
> >>It's near enough the same stuff, but with a red dye in it. You don't
> >>want the excise boys catching you running it though - you'll certainly
> >>get a fine and you may get a holiday.
> >>
> >>http://www.sdc.org.uk/general/features/feature_fuel.htm
> >
> >there are in fact 2 classes of heating oil commonly sold, C2 and D, and
> >diesel engines will technically run on either, and also on AVTUR, (AViation
> >TURbine fuel) hence why all the military contracts are now for diesel
> >engines.
> >
> >However, it doesn't have the same additive pack in it, which will mean more
> >emissions, and less lubrication of the pump, and eventual failures of all
> >kinds.
> >
> >The C2 oil ain't red, but don't let that fool you; it's got chemical
markers
> >in it, as indeed so has the red stuff.
>
>
> There is also a marker chemical as well as the dye that shows up under
> chromatographic analysis as a steep spike even when diluted with fresh
> revenue based road diesel for some time afterwards.
> If you get caught, even if your fuel doesn't look pink, any sample
> will still give a peak at the timed interval during analysis and it's
> up to you to prove how few miles you used non-revenue fuel for.
> The customs and excise might even let you buy your vehicle back if you
> are lucky...
>
> Dan



 
> Do you actually have people going around sampling your fuel?
>

Yes!

Our Customs and Excise are second only to the present UK Government in
terms of the amount of their interference in our private lives. (As part
of the govenment machine I suppose that's to be expected)

Not only under Blair have we become more of a police state but a more
heavily taxed one at that - they can't keep their smutty fingers out of
anything.

 
Having lived in the bundu for a while, I would love to witness the Aussie
reaction to a fuel test in the middle of the dry.

John H

"The Becketts" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Do you actually have people going around sampling your fuel?
>
> Or is this an urban myth?
>
> Seems hard to believe.
>
> I can understand them checking fuel retailers but individuals?
>
> Ron
> Emu Plains, Australia
>
>


 
The Becketts wrote:
> Do you actually have people going around sampling your fuel?

Yes they do. I can bear testament to how nasty the fsckers get when
they find the wrong diesel in the vehicle too. When I was living in
Wales I got sprung in a company vehicle with red diesel in it
(accidental fill up by a plonker I worked with) and all hell broke
loose. They let us off with a warning after 3 weeks without the vehicle
and much legal intervention.

--
EMB
change two to the number to reply
 
Flamin' heck!

Do they do it at random or because someone has told them you are using untaxed
fuel?

What about biodiesel? Do they query that too?

Ron


"EMB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The Becketts wrote:
> > Do you actually have people going around sampling your fuel?
>
> Yes they do. I can bear testament to how nasty the fsckers get when
> they find the wrong diesel in the vehicle too. When I was living in
> Wales I got sprung in a company vehicle with red diesel in it
> (accidental fill up by a plonker I worked with) and all hell broke
> loose. They let us off with a warning after 3 weeks without the vehicle
> and much legal intervention.
>
> --
> EMB
> change two to the number to reply



 
On or around Mon, 4 Oct 2004 23:22:03 +1000, "The Becketts"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Flamin' heck!
>
>Do they do it at random or because someone has told them you are using untaxed
>fuel?
>
>What about biodiesel? Do they query that too?

"proper" biodiesel no, as it's sold officially and has a (reduced) duty on
it. However, they're not amused by people buying cheap cooking oil to run
their cars on.

 
there is definately no red colouring dye or tracers in central heating oil ,
it is just plain old kerosene , white in colour .

i buy enough of it for use in heating systems to know the difference .

the only one with a colour dye in is paraffin , same as in the old "esso blue"
, but thats LAMP OIL . .

heating oil is 23p per litre .

if you do wish to filter any then i think you need fullers earth and a decent
fuel filter .


 
> there is definately no red colouring dye or tracers in central heating oil ,
> it is just plain old kerosene , white in colour .
>

Wrong!

There are two types of heating oil around in the UK. One is what most
would descibe as red diesel and the other is the kerosene that you
recognise.

David

 
On or around Mon, 04 Oct 2004 20:23:18 +0100, Dougal
<DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

>> there is definately no red colouring dye or tracers in central heating oil ,
>> it is just plain old kerosene , white in colour .
>>
>
>Wrong!
>
>There are two types of heating oil around in the UK. One is what most
>would descibe as red diesel and the other is the kerosene that you
>recognise.
>

although I'd lay good odds that there are chemical markers in both. HMC&E
take a very dimm view of people using non-duty-paid fuel in vehicles and
take considerable steps to make sure they can find out if you are.


 
The Becketts wrote:
> Flamin' heck!
>
> Do they do it at random or because someone has told them you are using untaxed
> fuel?

My stop was random - they were testing all sorts of diesel vehicles.

--
EMB
change two to the number to reply
 
On Monday, in article
<[email protected]>
DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk "Dougal" wrote:

> > there is definately no red colouring dye or tracers in central heating oil ,
> > it is just plain old kerosene , white in colour .
> >
>
> Wrong!
>
> There are two types of heating oil around in the UK. One is what most
> would descibe as red diesel and the other is the kerosene that you
> recognise.

Well, it is red diesel -- it's what we ran the farm tractors on. We
never had any hassle from Customs & Excise, even when we were running a
car on diesel. It was sometimes a bit confusing what the supplier wouid
call it.

But then we didn't turn up at a livestock market with a trailer and a
diesel Land Rover. They do seem to do a lot of checking that's somehow
targeted, where they expect to be able to sample a lot of vehicles.

--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."
 
On or around Tue, 05 Oct 2004 08:38:37 +0100 (BST),
[email protected] ("David G. Bell") enlightened us thusly:

>On Monday, in article
> <[email protected]>
> DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk "Dougal" wrote:
>
>> > there is definately no red colouring dye or tracers in central heating oil ,
>> > it is just plain old kerosene , white in colour .
>> >
>>
>> Wrong!
>>
>> There are two types of heating oil around in the UK. One is what most
>> would descibe as red diesel and the other is the kerosene that you
>> recognise.
>
>Well, it is red diesel -- it's what we ran the farm tractors on. We
>never had any hassle from Customs & Excise, even when we were running a
>car on diesel. It was sometimes a bit confusing what the supplier wouid
>call it.
>
>But then we didn't turn up at a livestock market with a trailer and a
>diesel Land Rover. They do seem to do a lot of checking that's somehow
>targeted, where they expect to be able to sample a lot of vehicles.

and also where there are likely to be more offenders.

however, there are 2 grades of heating oil commonly available, C2 kerosene
and D. I expect diesel engines will run after a fashion on either. The
military's decision to have everything diesel powered is about being able,
if needed, to run the vehicles on AVTUR (AViation TURbine fuel) which is
also kerosene in some form.

 
"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> >But then we didn't turn up at a livestock market with a trailer and a
> >diesel Land Rover. They do seem to do a lot of checking that's somehow
> >targeted, where they expect to be able to sample a lot of vehicles.
>
> and also where there are likely to be more offenders.
>
> however, there are 2 grades of heating oil commonly available, C2 kerosene
> and D. I expect diesel engines will run after a fashion on either. The
> military's decision to have everything diesel powered is about being able,
> if needed, to run the vehicles on AVTUR (AViation TURbine fuel) which is
> also kerosene in some form.
>

OTish, but I remember some years ago looking over an army Gazelle helicopter
and noticed the refuelling point. It had stencilled in BIG letters AVTUR.
However, it also had a list of other possible fuels it could be filled with
in extremis and the list was long. It included the forementioned AVTUR and
also the AVTAG and AVCAT varieties, but could also use AVGAS, MOGAS, KERO
and DIESO. I can't remember the full list now but I wouldn't be surprised
if it had also included FFO, cook-house chip fat, dead cats, ditch water and
rat wee.

Steve


 
Gawd! I feel sorry for you blokes (not really <grin>)

At least our fuel is still about 1/3 the cost of yours and I can afford to run
a 4.6 - albeit mostly on LPG - I fuelled up last night.with 80 litres of
petrol and 70 litres of LPG and the total cost was A$102 - about 41 quid.

Ron

"EMB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The Becketts wrote:
> > Flamin' heck!
> >
> > Do they do it at random or because someone has told them you are using
untaxed
> > fuel?
>
> My stop was random - they were testing all sorts of diesel vehicles.
>
> --
> EMB
> change two to the number to reply


 

"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> OTish, but I remember some years ago looking over an army Gazelle
helicopter
> and noticed the refuelling point. It had stencilled in BIG letters AVTUR.
> However, it also had a list of other possible fuels it could be filled
with
> in extremis and the list was long. It included the forementioned AVTUR
and
> also the AVTAG and AVCAT varieties, but could also use AVGAS, MOGAS, KERO
> and DIESO. I can't remember the full list now but I wouldn't be surprised
> if it had also included FFO, cook-house chip fat, dead cats, ditch water
and
> rat wee.
>
Indeed! AVTUR is nato code F34, it is basically KERO with an additive pack,
AL38. This pack comprises Fuel System Icing Inhibitor (FSII) commonly
referred to as "fizzy" and HYTEC, a lubricity additive.
AVTAG and AVCAT are variations of a theme, one doesn't have the FSII
additive and the other is, I think, a "Wide-Cut" fuel which was used by the
navy mainly, due to a higher flash-point for fire safety on ships.
Our poor relations across the pond devised a civillianised system for
aviation fuels (which their military use, ignoring the Nato designations!)
which has different designations again, JP8 being the same as AVTUR or F34,
JET-A1 being AVTUR without the AL38 additive pack.
AVGAS is 100/110 octane petrol, used to be low-lead (hence all the stories
of car engines blowing up in the past!) but is now lead-free and not in wide
military use.
MOGAS is a new one on me, but MTGAS used to be in wide use in the days of
the S111 landys.
MOD policy now is to buy only diesels that will run on AVTUR, certainly for
vehicles that may see action, as this means transportation of one fuel only
to a remote zone.
FWIW, the Gazelle was reputed to run on any liquidised hydrocarbon at all!!
Badger.


 
the 2 types of heating oil i am referring to are both white in colour .

the first is "28 second" kerosene which is what is used mainly in oil fired
central heating systems and workshop heating systems .

this 28sec kerosene "can" be used in diesel engines ,and it is white in colour
as is white diesel , but of course i must stress using it on the road isnt
legal due to no excise duty being paid on it ..

the only problem with using 28 sec is that if you have a rotary injection
pump the 28sec fuel will not sufficiently lubricate the pump internals on its
own , hence why many people use a 50/50 mix of white diesel and 28sec burning
oil .

of course if you wanted to play with mixture levels you could put motorcycle
2 stroke oil in with the 28sec heating oil and it will then have lubrication ,
but i do not know the levels of mix reqd .

the other type of "heating" oil i refer to is paraffin and this is white in
colour and is zero octane rated , this is also known as lamp oil.

red diesel i was not referring to , as we all know what this is and that it
contains dye ...


 
"Badger" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
>
> >
> Indeed! AVTUR is nato code F34, it is basically KERO with an additive
pack,
> AL38. This pack comprises Fuel System Icing Inhibitor (FSII) commonly
> referred to as "fizzy" and HYTEC, a lubricity additive.
> AVTAG and AVCAT are variations of a theme, one doesn't have the FSII
> additive and the other is, I think, a "Wide-Cut" fuel which was used by
the
> navy mainly, due to a higher flash-point for fire safety on ships.

Yep, I think a little allowance had to be made for the different specific
gravity of the fuels if you filled up with "non-standard" brew too (i.e. not
your home base fuel).

> Our poor relations across the pond devised a civillianised system for
> aviation fuels (which their military use, ignoring the Nato designations!)
> which has different designations again, JP8 being the same as AVTUR or
F34,
> JET-A1 being AVTUR without the AL38 additive pack.

I think JP4 is/was AVTAG equivalent - mostly used in Germany and by the rest
of European NATO.

> AVGAS is 100/110 octane petrol, used to be low-lead (hence all the stories
> of car engines blowing up in the past!) but is now lead-free and not in
wide
> military use.

Again, IIRC, AVGAS was 100/130 octane (and a very pretty blue colour). You
could also get 145 octane, but I think they were all leaded fuels. The
advent of the new AVGAS 100LL is where the Low-Lead came in. The blowing up
stories were probably urban myth put about to deter pilfering!!

> MOGAS is a new one on me, but MTGAS used to be in wide use in the days of
> the S111 landys.

MOGAS - MOtor GASoline, i.e. car (98 RON) petrol. It's possibly more of an
aviators term/abbreviation to differentiate it from AVGAS and the dog-food
RON MTGAS.

> MOD policy now is to buy only diesels that will run on AVTUR, certainly
for
> vehicles that may see action, as this means transportation of one fuel
only
> to a remote zone.

The added bonus is that they don't have spark plugs that get wet when you
have to splish aggressively through a few puddles! "Sorry, can't fight -
too many puddles".

> FWIW, the Gazelle was reputed to run on any liquidised hydrocarbon at
all!!
> Badger.
>
>


 
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