installing hot start fix

Hi guys - I bought one of the hot start fixes from ebay, however the instructions have been fairly badly translated and dont offer much direction. I was wondering if anyone has any helpful guides/pictures for someone that is a bit useless..

This is the one Ive received

Hot Starting Fix Range Rover 2.5 - easy start for your car | eBay

Thanks

Hello
The web site says it also comes in english with photos get back in touch and ask to resend the install instructions to you

TBH i wouldn't of bothered buying the thing.All you had to do was wire the glow plugs through a manual switch in the cab as they used to do back in the days when diesels were simples

Or you can pour cold water over pump to make it think car is cold cheapest solution if a diesel is hot it does not need glow plugs to start .

actually if you wanted to fix it without bodging hot start kits and switches in is advance the injection pump timing to between 1-1.5mm which compensates for the wear/slack in the timing chain.

Rubbish rubbish if diesels would not start because Of a slack timing chain then there would be many cars of all makes not starting my p38 had all chains and sprockets replaced due to a failed hydraulic tensioner would it start when hot and cold yes noisy but started fine in the fip pump there is a sensor that works out the temp this is what fails creating the hot start problem timing chains indeed myth as far as I'm concerned.

Here we go...... the last argument I missed, not missing this one

it is common knowledge in bmw circles and any decent landy specialist will agree.
i have been through this with some very clued up people and have done this to both my p38 and cured it.
i have also helped numerous people on here with how to find the timing tools cheaply so they too could carry this out and it has allways worked.
so iam not going to argue over your opinion which is wrong and just say iam a motor vehicle engineer with over 20 years experience and have worked at 4x4 specialists dealing with this kind of thing every day.
the reason why timing is important on these is the pump adjusts timing for hot start, if the chain is slack it cant do it properly.
hence to be honest not interested in your opinion my answer is based on experience and results.
and after seeing some of your posts where it seems to be a case of a little knowledge is dangerous and chuckling as you get a telling of from senior members (wammers!) just not interested!

defender300td1 said:

Rubbish rubbish if diesels would not start because Of a slack timing chain then there would be many cars of all makes not starting my p38 had all chains and sprockets replaced due to a failed hydraulic tensioner would it start when hot and cold yes noisy but started fine in the fip pump there is a sensor that works out the temp this is what fails creating the hot start problem timing chains indeed myth as far as I'm concerned.

Click to expand...

This particular hot start fault is particular to this engine....

After 20k miles or so the stretch in the FIP drive chain retards the pump timing making it difficult to hot start.

What the Hot Start Fix does, is fool the EDC into think the engine is cold so advances the FIP timing to compensate and increase fuelling times....

So it is with regret but your comment of 'Rubbish rubbish if diesels would not start because Of a slack timing chain then there would be many cars of all makes not starting....' This particular fault is only on the M51 TD engine from BMW as used in the Omega's, BMW's, Rangies etc....it is well documented and well known...the solution has been well circulated by both BMW and Land Rover.....there is even a Tech Bulletin from LR about it too....so yes chain stretch will render hot start problems...

The timing needs to be carried out carefully using the correct tools, locking pins and DTI's etc to compensate for the stretch.

oh and to add replace the temp sensor in the top of the pump it wont make a farts worth of difference been there done that!

6704nathan said:

it is common knowledge in bmw circles and any decent landy specialist will agree.
i have been through this with some very clued up people and have done this to both my p38 and cured it.
i have also helped numerous people on here with how to find the timing tools cheaply so they too could carry this out and it has allways worked.
so iam not going to argue over your opinion which is wrong and just say iam a motor vehicle engineer with over 20 years experience and have worked at 4x4 specialists dealing with this kind of thing every day.
the reason why timing is important on these is the pump adjusts timing for hot start, if the chain is slack it cant do it properly.
hence to be honest not interested in your opinion my answer is based on experience and results.
and after seeing some of your posts where it seems to be a case of a little knowledge is dangerous and chuckling as you get a telling of from senior members (wammers!) just not interested!

Click to expand...

....also what he said....^^^^^^

6704nathan said:

actually if you wanted to fix it without bodging hot start kits and switches in is advance the injection pump timing to between 1-1.5mm which compensates for the wear/slack in the timing chain.

Click to expand...

:doh: I should of thought of that,Makes perfect sense to me,if the timings out due to wear then it WOULD make a difference.But having said that on a high mileage old girl i would still bypass the glow plug sensors and have a manual heat option.

dellboy1959 said:

:doh: I should of thought of that,Makes perfect sense to me,if the timings out due to wear then it WOULD make a difference.But having said that on a high mileage old girl i would still bypass the glow plug sensors and have a manual heat option.

Click to expand...

The hot start fix only tricks the ECU into thinking the engine is cold. So the ECU sets engine up for cold start. Which not only enables heater plugs but sets fuel solenoid to high idle giving more fuel. If the chains stretch it retards injection, reducing the amount of fuel for a hot start.

Wammers I'll get round to posting other source reports tomoro .if timing is set and pump is set what differance should it make weather engine is hot of cold . Glow plugs are needed to start a cold engine there after when hot not so where do chains come into it. I am lead to believe different .

defender300td1 said:

Wammers I'll get round to posting other source reports tomoro .if timing is set and pump is set what differance should it make weather engine is hot of cold . Glow plugs are needed to start a cold engine there after when hot not so where do chains come into it. I am lead to believe different .

Click to expand...

The FIP is driven from a Chain....as this chain stretches the timing of the FIP changes.....so the pump is already retarded due to chain stretch, so in a hot start situation the amount of advance applied only puts the FIP back to normal timing again and not to the hot start advance position.....

So if the pump gets retimed after 20,000 miles to take into account the stretch in the chain, all's cool with school as the timing change has been set back to normal and there will be no hot start issues.....

The majority who fit the hot start fix kit, haven't retimed the FIP (Due to cost and fiddliness) so are masking the issue with an electronic workaround....

The only true cure is to retime the FIP to take into account the chain stretch....

So yse, if the FIP has been retimed to allow for this streching, then as you state there should be no hot start problems.....but I'll think you'll find those who don't retime their pump will have issues due to chain stretch.

It is well documented by both BMW and Land Rover that this stretch is the cause.

Always worth looking at the sensors and FIP timing with diagnostics before fitting the hot start bodge.

defender300td1 said:

Wammers I'll get round to posting other source reports tomoro .if timing is set and pump is set what differance should it make weather engine is hot of cold . Glow plugs are needed to start a cold engine there after when hot not so where do chains come into it. I am lead to believe different .

Click to expand...

Because there are different settings for cold start and hot start. When the engine is cold the fuel quantity servo is set for fast idle giving more fuel. And the timing is at it's static position. When the engine starts the injection timing is advanced to suit the rpm when signals start to be recieved from number four injector and crank sensor. Until the engine is running or at least the engine is cranked fast enough to present signals to the ECU none of this can take place. When the pump timing is set correctly static at TDC number one, it is set with lift on the cam and the delivery valve parially open. If the chains stretch the injection is retarded, there is no lift on the cam and the delivery valve is shut. So you don't get any fuel for a hot start until the engine is cranking and signals start from the sensors. That is why the hot start problem seems to go away if you fit a new powerful battery to crank the engine faster. The hot start conteracts chain stretch and therefore lack of hot start fuel by tricking the ECU into thinking the engine is cold and setting amongst other things fast idle fuel. The small amount of extra fuel and the glow plugs give you your hot start.

Ok I understand where your all coming from but lets go back in time a bit to fip pumps that are not electrically fuel metered if the timing chain was out depending to what degree you would get no start at all, poor running/ performance and at worst really out a collide of piston and valve . My point is if so called timing chain is slack or even out why is the normal tickover performance not Afected in anyway ?

The timing chain for the Valve gear and the Drive chain for the FIP are seperate chains, although the FIP is driven directly from the Crank, and the Camshaft is drive from the same Gear as the FIP Pump.

The changes in stretch of the FIP Drive chain will have little effect on the valve timing as the change is very small, but even though this is a small change, it is enough to throw the FIP out of time by just enough to prevent hot starting. I think the amount you need to retime the FIP by to overcome is in the fractions of an inch, so this will have little effect on the valve gear timing.

When the engine is running, the No.4 Injector and the CPS work together to automatically adjust the FIP timing to maintain smooth running and efficent combustion....as the Wammer stated, during the start sequence with no CPS signal or Injector 4 Pulse, the EDC takes over the FIP timing to a set point, but this set point it is trying to achieve can't be fullfilled as the static, physical timing of the FIP is out of datum due to the stretch in the chain.....

Infact the retiming adjustment of the FIP is mentioned in RAVE I have just noticed, with adjustment figures for vehicles of under 20,000km and those over 20,000km with the new Lift Cam measurements and the required tolerances.

Once the engine is running the EDC then takes its FIP timing form the reults of the CPS and No.4 Injector...hence smooth, reasonably unaffected engine performance.

Ok when I had my fip recon on fitment of pump my chain was so slack that the chain sllipped a tooth, on disassembly it expired that the chain hydraulic tensinor had failed resulting in worn away guides now that was a very worn chain and sprockets . Did I have hot start issues no so I'm not convinced . When a pump gets a recon it is stripped cleaned has new seals and it tested with specialise equment not for the like of a main dealer or independent garage thus that is why dealers replace pumps and indeipendent remove and send them off to diesel injection places. Now rebuild is around £600 that will fix seals and have cleaned internals if internals need replacing it is cost effective to renew the whole pump at a cost of around £900. I am led to believe that the problem with hot start is down to a worn pump or the electrical side of pump the top part temp/s or temp
Sensors else where the top cost £300 so you might as well get a new pump this was explained in Lro international with no mention of timing chains