HDC/F4 saga continues!

Gentlemen. If you followed my ordeal with this issue, you learned that the problem was SOLVED, by spraying the barrels with the contact cleaner, and charging the battery. And it WAS (for two days!).

Wife came home last night, and said that Hippo threw the HDC and F4 twice, on the way home! And this time it's different. HDC and F4 appear, she pulls over, turns the ignition off, and after few seconds, like nothing happened! Even HDC light disappears (before it stayed on all the time!)!

So I am about to go out in the barn (Hippo lives in the barn!), and spray the barrels again. Then I'll try "Hippo's system" of securing the barrels with hose clamps and zip ties, and see what happens. If that doesn't work (and the issue reapears in a day or two), I am thinking of eliminating the barrels altogether! What do you think?

I can cut the wires, solder, and make the connections moisture proof. Methinks,....there is no "need" for the barrels (IF they are the culprit). They are there to ease the removal of the gearbox, but since I will be the one removing it (IF and when), what do I care? I can cut the wires any time, extend them if I need to, and work around it.

One night we drove Hippo at 80+MPH up and down the freeway, with NO ISSUES (tranny shifts beautifully). And yesterday (in 95F heat), wife left the hospital, went to the gym (less than 1/2 mile away), and from the gym to home had to pull over TWICE.

I hardly slept last night, thinking about the course of action. This needs to get sorted out ASAP, and if I can't do it, the next step would be the dealer (regardless of the cost, she loves her Hippo THAT much!).

Soldering up the cables would eliminate the them I guess.

Clean the barrel connectors but make sure you wipe oft or clean out the cleaner if it's not evaporating self clean/clear stuff. Don't bother with grease etc. It just makes them worser. Leave them dry and clean. Also look at the pins to see if they're lose. Also check the socket holes are ok. Soldering them up will eliminate the connection and there's nothing wrong with this but it can hamper things if you want them apart again. Make sure the pins at the computer end are not broken/bent and that the wires don't push out or move when the connector plugs in. Also check the connector holes to see if they're damaged or not gripping the pin.

The tie wrap trick only works if the barrel connectors are broke'd or not twisted together proper. If they are you will be able to turn the barrel that bit further, which allows them to break loose a bit. That's what mine do. I can balance the barrel at the perfect turning point to keep them closed but tie wraps is a Freelanderers best friend.

I'm using the best contact cleaner money can buy (it evaporates in seconds). Once the hose clamps are on the barrels, the barrels can not be inserted in their respective brackets. I think the brackets (judging by their design) are made the way they are, in order to prevent barrel separation. My brackets are broken BTW (on both cars), and the barrels are dangling loose. They are also touching the rad hoses (VERY HOT!), and the problem becomes more pronounced with hot temps (coincidence?).

So what did I do this morning? Well,.....I sprayed the crap out of the barrels, put the hose clamps on them, and zip ties. Then I moved them away from the rad hoses, and fixed them somewhat stationary to the battery tray. Then I pulled all relays, sprayed them, and their respective sockets, and after I reconnected the battery, I had a surprise!

When I locked Hippo, the lights flashed as usual, but I also had the horn sounding off, that was not there before! So whatever problem I am dealing with, it's DEFINITELY electrical.

And if you remember, I bought this poor critter off the junkyard. It was parked there for about three months (in the rainy CA season). I'm sure the hood was left open MANY a night, and the "fishtank" was FULL. Who knows what kind of crud got into the relay box, and all other corners. I ended up taking the carpet out, washing it, drying it, then I dried out the fishtank, and drilled few holes at the bottom of it (just in case). The car does not leak (took it through the carwash several times since), but when I first saw it, the back window was down, and the junkyard people told me that it doesn't work (meaning it didn't come up in three months they had it)! It works just fine, if one knows what to do.

And after I got done with it this morning, I took it for a "spiritted" drive. No issues. MAYBE, it's sorted out, and maybe it will reappear again. Maybe the fault (whatever it is) shows up only after a certain number of restarts?

Intermittent electrical faults are always difficult to find. I have one at the moment which I've made betterer but not cured. Leave it for a while to see if it comes back. If it does take the engine bay fuse box apart, tighten clips and put back together.

My barrel connectors are secured to the metal at the side of the rad, away from pipes. I don't go through deep water anymore so it doesn't bother me.

As you're in the US you have the advantage of being able to use an OBD reader to pull the codes - I would do this so at least you know what area to look at.

Can waste time effort and money blind diagnosing issues

td4van said:

As you're in the US you have the advantage of being able to use an OBD reader to pull the codes - I would do this so at least you know what area to look at.

Can waste time effort and money blind diagnosing issues

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Oh rest assured I did that many times! It gives me P1717 "low clutch solenoid" fault from time to time. Before I sprayed the barrels, it gave me P1719 as well. I checked the resistance accross the barrels, and all is good. I know this can not tell me if low clutch solenoid is sticking or not. Since the symptoms are intermittent, and also changing (constant HDC vs. sporadic), I think it's electrical. I am not a novice (I am in respect to Freelander), and I know the bad tranny, from the good one. This one shifts as it should, as smooth as any other one (I have several other cars, including 06 L322). I don't think the problem is mechanical.

All other cars I ever had (and still have) keep the CEL on at all times, unless I erase it with my OBD (and fix the issue). This one is different! HDC, F4, "Service engine soon", comes up, tranny is restricted to the fourth gear, and it's limping. Pull over, turn it off (5-10 seconds!), restart, and all is good! No lights, normal shifting, and no CEL either!

At first I thought my OBD can not "see" what's going on. So I paid a guy with a computer to read it for me. He showed me all systems OK on his laptop, and at the time he was reading it, there was NO ERRORS/WARNINGS on the dash!

Methinks,.....something is losing contact and/or ground depending on the temperature of the engine bay (acts up when hot!). This will be VERY hard to find, especially when you can't replicate the issue at will. I can take it to the dealer, pay their diagnostic time, and they will come back telling me that there is nothing wrong with it (like the Indy computer guy did).

It drives me NUTS! I suffer (I admit) from severe OCD (20+ years in the uniform would do this to ANYONE!), and EVERYTHING I own, use, love, etc. has to be PERFECT, or I can't sleep. I was rolling in my bed last night tracing all electrical connections to the tranny and ABS in my mind! I am THAT sick.

Danielsand said:

Oh rest assured I did that many times! It gives me P1717 "low clutch solenoid" fault from time to time. Before I sprayed the barrels, it gave me P1719 as well. I checked the resistance accross the barrels, and all is good. I know this can not tell me if low clutch solenoid is sticking or not. Since the symptoms are intermittent, and also changing (constant HDC vs. sporadic), I think it's electrical. I am not a novice (I am in respect to Freelander), and I know the bad tranny, from the good one. This one shifts as it should, as smooth as any other one (I have several other cars, including 06 L322). I don't think the problem is mechanical.

All other cars I ever had (and still have) keep the CEL on at all times, unless I erase it with my OBD (and fix the issue). This one is different! HDC, F4, "Service engine soon", comes up, tranny is restricted to the fourth gear, and it's limping. Pull over, turn it off (5-10 seconds!), restart, and all is good! No lights, normal shifting, and no CEL either!

At first I thought my OBD can not "see" what's going on. So I paid a guy with a computer to read it for me. He showed me all systems OK on his laptop, and at the time he was reading it, there was NO ERRORS/WARNINGS on the dash!

Methinks,.....something is losing contact and/or ground depending on the temperature of the engine bay (acts up when hot!). This will be VERY hard to find, especially when you can't replicate the issue at will. I can take it to the dealer, pay their diagnostic time, and they will come back telling me that there is nothing wrong with it (like the Indy computer guy did).

It drives me NUTS! I suffer (I admit) from severe OCD (20+ years in the uniform would do this to ANYONE!), and EVERYTHING I own, use, love, etc. has to be PERFECT, or I can't sleep. I was rolling in my bed last night tracing all electrical connections to the tranny and ABS in my mind! I am THAT sick.

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Somebody else on here from hotter climes also had a problem with his car when it got hot.

I can't remember who, but I think it was a TD4. Within the last 6 month I think. Possibly user name started with an 'h' and south Africa rings a dim bell (possibly).

I'll try to find this post from South Africa, thanx.

In the meantime,.........decided to drive to the store (just to see what the little critter will do) at the hottest time of the day (97F). After two blocks Hippo threw HDC, and F4. I continued to drive to the store in fourth gear, with amber! Hippo. Came there and locked it (with remote), but no horn chime!!

Came out, started driving, ....no lights, no warnings, for about a block (amber!, and F4 promptly appeared). Drove to the ranch, and started digging again! Pulled all relays, and swapped them for the relays off of the donor car (just to remind you, THAT one I drove, and it was fully functional before it gave up it's engine/tranny to fix THIS one).

Trying different things took a while in this heat, but soon I realized that when I lock it with remote, the horn chimes, but the lights don't flash! (and few minutes before they did!). Then I disconnected the battery again, reset everything, started it, put it into first, and pressed the HDC button. For the first time since I own the car, I saw the green Hippo (aside from when I turn the key on without starting, and even then just for few seconds)! It didn't last though. I drove about 1/2 mile in first (on my property), disconnected HDC (green Hippo went away), and shifted in second (manually). Right away I got amber! and F4. Crap.

I put it back in the barn, locked it, lights flashed, but no horn chime! Aha! Same as in front of the grocery store. So I raised the hood, and hit the lock button again. Lights flash, horn chimes, doors lock! But the hood is UP!

Just to verify my new finding, I closed the hood on the unlocked car, AND on the locked and fully alarmed car,.....same results. Lights flash, no horn chime. Horn chimes ONLY when the hood is up! Is this normal behavior?

I am losing my mind here! Did ANYONE see anything like this before!? Save me from the Palm Springs dealer, I am about to give it to them to sort it out (double OUCH!!). I might as well bend over, and get a good grip on my knees (and Palm Springs is more famous for that than San Francisco!).

Forgot to mention,....in all this "barn adventure", "Service Engine Soon" appeared (in yellow). It stayed there for few starting cycles, and then it went away all on its own.

What in the world is going on!!?

Sounds like you may want to look at cleaning all earths if you haven't already

The horn bleeps if the doors/bonnet/tailgate is open when yer lock it as a warning something it open, or sensed it's open.

fanatic said:

Sounds like you may want to look at cleaning all earths if you haven't already

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No I haven't! Can someone point them all to me (locations)?

So Hippo,......horn chime happens ONLY when something is open, that it shouldn't be? Otherwise (all good) just the lights flash?

And BTW, what are you guys doing up at this hour (or do I dare ask?)? It's 5PM in CA, and Midnight over there? (or is it 1AM, I'm too ticked off now to think straight!).

Danielsand said:

No I haven't! Can someone point them all to me (locations)?

So Hippo,......horn chime happens ONLY when something is open, that it shouldn't be? Otherwise (all good) just the lights flash?

And BTW, what are you guys doing up at this hour (or do I dare ask?)? It's 5PM in CA, and Midnight over there? (or is it 1AM, I'm too ticked off now to think straight!).

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At this moment 1:20am, currently away from home as parent in intensive care, so looking for distractions to take up time.

Lots of seemingly unconnected issues can be caused by bad earths, well worth finding and cleaning them

fanatic said:

At this moment 1:20am, currently away from home as parent in intensive care, so looking for distractions to take up time.

Lots of seemingly unconnected issues can be caused by bad earths, well worth finding and cleaning them

Click to expand...

I found the schematic of the earth points on 1.8L Hippo on this forum. I think they should be same on this one? Since the engine/tranny replacement was the only thing done, I would suspect that something in the engine bay was left disconnected, or has a bad contact.

I will research this area, and hopefully find all of the points. That's the only thing left to do, before the trip to the dealer. If any of you had the engine/tranny replacement done before, I would appreciate you chime in, and tell me where to look around the engine bay. There is only one point I can see (by the battery) without removing the airbox. There must be a main ground strap somewhere on the engine (on Jaguars this is a braided strap, easily seen). I would think that the main ground for the engine is connected (hard to miss), but there might be some obscure ground that's easily overlooked.
The computer guy who had this car on his laptop, said (at the time) that IF anything is disconnected, or has a break in wiring, his program would point it out. He reported that EVERYTHING is functioning "normal". Whatever it is, it's DEFINITELY heat related. Hippo drives like a charm in the mornings, and starts to throw fits in the afternoon.
I also searched the web posts in relation between F4 and heat, and came up empty.

I changed the engine in my V6 2 years ago. I can't remember seeing the engine earth strap, there must be one. I'll look out the pictures.
Have you checked the ECU's in the E box? Harnes earth points are the same on all models iirc.

There are two computers in the engine bay. Engine Management and Transmission Management. I know the car will not start with the ECM that doesn't "belong" to the right engine. But how about TCM?

I checked the restistance of all connections from TCM to the tranny (through the barrels), and all came good. I can try and swap the TCMs, and see what happens, but I don't think that's the problem.

I found several posts all over the web (from years ago), where people observed that amber HDC, and F4 are ambient temperature related (my exact observation), but nobody posted ANY solutions/findings.

I KNOW other people had the same issue, and it would be nice to hear from them, in order to narrow my search.

As it looks,....Hippo will be a cold temperature vehicle only. I recon there will be no problems in the Winter.

My theory of "ambient temperature" just went down the toilet. Wife took Hippo to work this morning, and called to tell me that she didn't even make it off the ranch, when "Service Engine Soon", HDC, and F4 appeared. And the temperature was balmy 60F!

So it seems that the problem got worse since I put the hose clamps, and zip ties on the barrels! I also pulled the barrels a little up, and fastened them to the battery tray. Obviously,.....something is losing connection, once the wires are pulled tight.

Before I take the zip tie setup apart, I will go and check the continuity at the TCM connector. I hope it will show me which wire is disconnected! Once I find it, it will be easy. If I don't (if all resistance reads normal), I'll cut the barrels off, solder the wires, and slip some heavy duty shrink tubing on the connections. Barrels are again my prime suspects, and I need to eliminate them as such, once and for all.

When this is sorted out (and IF the problem persists), I'll continue with the ground points, TCM itself, and as a last resort, swap the tranny. IF none of this takes care of the issue,......maybe a brick of C4. As I said before,....I LOVE a good challenge, but c'mon! This is getting ridiculous!

I've read some old internet postings (not this forum), stating that even dealers have NO CLUE how to handle this. They keep throwing parts at it (including replacement engines and trannys), and the customer just keeps paying, and paying. I wish I had the LR franchise, back then when I was in the car business. I'd be living in Monaco on my yacht right now.

I hate posts where people post their issues, and never come back to give the update, making us wonder what happened.

So,......IF some of you are wondering........

Hippo would not drive for more than 10 yards after start at the time, throwing HDC, F4, and Service Engine Soon. I disconnected the battery, and pulled the plug at the TCM. I paid special attention to the pins powering low clutch solenoid (OBD gave me the same code as in the begining of the saga, P1717). ALL solenoids checked OK, within the prescribed parameters "Hippo" posted on Youtube (and that's through the zip tied barrels!).

I cut the zip ties, and removed the hose clamps from the barrels. Took the barrels apart again, and gave them another "wash" with contact cleaner. All codes, all issues, went away immediately! Drove Hippo over the weekend (HOT CA Summer, at 95F+). No issues. Since the weather was hot, and since it was a holiday weekend (people coming and going, barbecues, fireworks....), I did not cut the wires and solder them (no time). At this point, there is no doubt in my mind that barrels ARE the problem, and I'll proceed to eliminate them at the first sign of trouble.

Just in case you were wondering.