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Freelander TD4 Starting Issues

Discussion in 'Land Rover Freelander' started by hiruss, Jul 28, 2017.

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  1. hiruss

    hiruss Member

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    hi friends,

    This is my first post to the site. I have had many helps from your posts that I managed to resolve many of the issues I had with my Freelander.
    But now have a bit complicated issue that I could not find any solution and hoping you will be able to give me some insight.

    I have Freelander TD4 2003, with 200k kilo meters. I'm am from Sri Lanka where LR vehicles/parts are rare and pretty expensive. And we have only a handful of places who know how to diagnosis a TD4 engine.

    For the entire 2 1/2 years that I had the car, it never started in one click. It needed at least 6-10 cranks to get it going.
    Within last couple of months, the problem worsened and finally I had to crank about 20 seconds to start.
    Also in heavy mountain roads, engine management light comes and after stop & start it goes away.

    I suspected a fuel delivery issue. I replaced the fuel filter (Fuel pump was replaced about 10k kms ago). Water sediment is cleared. Checked the fuel intake line near the engine, fuel flow is fine & fast. But no luck with starting. I had no tool to check fuel pressure.

    Brought the car to a local garage who cleaned the inlet manifold and flush the system with injector cleaner. Emptied the fuel tank and refilled.
    It started fine for first couple of times but returned to the old state shortly.

    Brought back the car and next day it refused to start no matter how long I cranked it. Finally a guy from local garage started it by dropping few drops of gasoline to inlet manifold (I know how it can damage the engine but I didn't know about that by that time).

    Next I brought the car to the local LR dealer who tested the car for 4 days. Here's what they did.

    Scanned for errors - Only low fuel pressure fault was recorded. Cleared and checked - no error.
    Cleaned inlet manifold and EGR.
    Compression test - Cylinder 1,2 & 3 OK. 4 Under compression. Ruled out as not the cause to the starting delay.
    Injector test - 1,2 & 4 OK. 3 leaks a bit from overflow end. They said it happens only when the engine is at high RPM. So ruled out.

    Unable to find exact cause, they reassembled the engine and surprisingly, it started with 2 cranks!
    I was very happy. Drove short/long journeys, no issue.

    After a week, one morning, it started fine. After 3km drive and 1hour later, it took about 10 cranks to start!
    Since that, it takes 10-20 cranks to start. No change in cold/warm start.
    Staring just after stopping the engine seems to take less cranks.

    While idle running, if I open the oil cap, a considerable air flow comes out. Thinking it is the breather filter, I removed the entire PCV/breather filter assembly. But still air flows from oil inlet.
    There seems to be much less air flow in PCV/breather filter assembly (not much that I can feel with my hand). No air/oil comes from dipstick. Oil level seems to be very slightly reduced.

    No engine miss/knock. Smoke is clear. In rapid accelerations, black smoke comes out.

    Note: I changed the breather filter to the new BMW part from *bay (only the filter) 3 months ago and that was the most recent change I did before the starting issue. Could this be connected?

    Sorry for the lengthy post. I am out of ideas. Hope someone can help me please.
    Many Thanks,
     
  2. Nodge68

    Nodge68 Well-Known Member

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    Hi.
    I'd start with known faults that cause sluggish starting. These are as follows:
    The high pressure fuel pump regulator O rings.

    The MAF sensor ages or fails completely.

    The EGR valve stuck open.
     
    Madmustang likes this.
  3. hiruss

    hiruss Member

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    Hi Nodge68,

    Thanks for your kind input.
    I checked the MAF sensor reading from OBD, it seems ok.
    EGR is cleaned and refitted.
    The high pressure fuel pump regulator - Is it the sensor which is fitted at the end of fuel rail? It was cleaned and re-fitted at the garage. No sign of leakage seeing from the out side.

    I'm really worried about the air pressure through the oil cap. It can damage the turbo, right?
    I checked again with the breather filter and the cover is removed but still air blows out from the oil cap. Is it a gasket leak?
     
  4. hd3

    hd3 Well-Known Member

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    the 'fuel regulator' be bolted onto the hp fuel pump
    the fuel rail sensor be at the end of the fuel rail ..
    ( some site retailers get the 2 mixed up .. as in .. name / description )

    that's normal .. i would think ..
    opening the oil cap just gives an easier escape for the pulses
    as opposed to the smaller breather tubes .. and its valve ..

    if your worried about the breather system ..
    just remove the dipstick at engine idle ..
    if oil pumps out .. all's Not well with the breather
    no oil pumpin' out .. breather be ok

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  5. Nodge68

    Nodge68 Well-Known Member

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    What hd3 said. The crankcase is connected to the inlet manifold by the breather system. So it will naturally be boosted by the turbo while the engine is running. The turbo can't really be damaged by high crankcase pressure, because the turbo is responsible for it to begin with. ;)
    As for the pressure regulator. It's as hd3 said.


    Where did you get your datum figures to compare your MAF readings with? A duff MAF can still give readings on the OBD2 port. The feedback values are often just wrong and no use to the ECU.
     
  6. hiruss

    hiruss Member

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    Hi,

    I don't have a professional tool but a cheap OBD2 connector + Android App. MAF sensor reading is about 12 g/s in idle and increase when accelerating (40 g/s @ 3000rpm). So I guessed it is working fine. Is it not enough? :)

    I checked the dipstick and no oil/air comes out even when accelerating. To make sure, I did a balloon test too. One less thing to worry about. Thanks HD3 & Nodge68 :)

    I will continue with high pressure pump regulator seal. I wonder, if the rail pressure is not enough, can't we see that through high pressure fuel sensor readings?

    Further, I noticed that engine starts to sound like a whistle @ 1600 rpm and it becomes louder in high rpm. Also the smoke contains diesel in high rpm.
    Is it normal?

    Many thank,
     
  7. Nodge68

    Nodge68 Well-Known Member

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    If you are getting 12 g/S at idle then 40 g/S isn't anything like enough. Mine makes 1200 or 1300 g/S at full power. ;)
     
  8. hiruss

    hiruss Member

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    Oops :-o
    Mine never goes that far. Yesterday morning I disconnected MAF and tried. Starting was not perfect but better than before (about 4 sec cranking). Plugged it again and no difference. So I applied some contact cleaner and plugged it again. I did not have the tool to remove MAF sensor for cleaning. Will try that too. Thanks for pointing it out :)
    Could this be the reason for eye-burning smoke in high RPM (2500 rpm - not in gear)?
     
  9. Nodge68

    Nodge68 Well-Known Member

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    If it starts in 4 seconds of cranking, then that's about right. My own perfect running TD4 with 120K miles on it cranks for about 4 seconds before it starts from cold. Slightly less if it's cold enough for the glow plug light to illuminate.
    A diesel has to generate sufficient heat in cranking to fire the fuel. As engine wear takes place, less heat is generated, and the longer the cranking period will be. ;)

    I doubt cleaning the MAF will help. With the figures you're getting, the MAF is dead. A Bosch replacement is needed. In general, aftermarket replacements aren't very good. The other way is to fit a Synergy module and Peirburg MAF as a kit.

    I don't know about your smoke. But it sounds like it could be the EGR valve openening or an injector fault. I'm also thinking that the cat could be partially blocked, causing sufficient pressure to lift the EGR valve off its seat.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  10. hiruss

    hiruss Member

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    Thank you very much Nodge68 for your guidance :)

    More things to worry about. Rear door window mechanism has stopped working. When trying to open the door, the glass shattered to pieces :(.
    Looking for a replacement.

    I will check the EGR and others as time permits.
     
  11. MollyNomad

    MollyNomad Well-Known Member

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    Thinking that the MAF and that dogdy injector together could be causing much of this issue without going into too complicated scenarios and worring about this or that? Any injector thats gives too much leak back will cause issues and although the garage said the others were okay I would err on the side that they are the same age and more than likely leaking back too much also. Thick black smoke under hard acceleration? Is that a sympton of a vaccum leak or or that the system is compromised beyond the MAF? Maybe a few lines leaking/split? Bosch MAF sensor and reconditioned injectors would be a decent step in the right direction and easier to sort than HP pump seal etc although you may have to go there too? Bad luck with breaking the back window on the door, I am awaiting my daughter to tell me she has done the same on my(I mean her) TD4. Best if luck with fixing and keep us informed.
     
  12. hiruss

    hiruss Member

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    Hi all,
    Sorry I could not post here as I had my wedding :)
    Over the last 4 months since I check & refit everything, starting has become worse gradually, now it takes more than 20 seconds to start.
    Since my pocket is slim with wedding and all, I cannot afford replacing parts without making sure they have failed. While I appreciate all of your advises, looking for more info to understand what is wrong. Here is the current status.

    It takes about 20 seconds or more cranking to start. It is worse when engine is hot.

    Heavy acceleration causes to go to limp mode. MIL is illuminated and fault code P1190 (fuel pressure plausibility) is recorded. This continuous until engine is running. Everything is back to normal once stop & start again.

    No difference with MAF is connected/disconnected.
    EGR is cleaned and vacuum line is disconnected. It is seated correctly.

    Hawk eye scanner shows fuel rail pressure as below (while not in gear).
    750 rpm - 28 kpa
    1750 rpm - 56 kpa
    2750 rpm - 65 kpa
    3750 rpm - 70 kpa

    When ignition is on (before start), there is some fuel returned through return line. There is no much fuel coming from injectors return line so seems it's coming through high pressure pump/regulator. This return flow is not increased or decreased when cranking or when engine is running.

    So I have questions,
    Are the higher pressure values enough for the given rpm?
    If the desired pressure is not achieved, then why there is fuel in return line? Shouldn't the regulator hold it until the pressure limit is reached?
    Is there any other test I can perform to narrow down the problem?

    Appreciate your thoughts..
     
  13. hiruss

    hiruss Member

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    Hi all,
    After disconnecting and reconnecting 3rd injector fuel line, starting issue is resolved. I don't know why but it must be the same reason why the starting was better after refitting everything four months ago.
    May be air trapped in common rail. I'm monitoring starting time, if it become worse over time, I will re-do it to make sure.
    Still, the limp mode is there. This mostly happens when I try to pass another vehicle. Sometimes the MIL is illuminated, performance is reduced and engine is making strange sound. Fault code P1190 is recorded. Once the engine is stopped and restart, everything is back to normal.
    I tried, replacing high pressure fuel regulator o-ring and swapping boost actuator solenoid with the egr solenoid (which is disconnected). There is some improvement but not fixed.
    Could you please give me some advice?
    Many Thanks,
     
  14. hiruss

    hiruss Member

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    Seems like nobody cares :(
    Anyway I'm updating my findings hoping that someone would give me some advice.
    Again, starting became worse. Again I removed the high pressure line but it didn't work. Leakback test showed that 3rd injector is leaking.
    So I tried to remove the injector but couldn't so fitted everything again hoping to bring it to a garage to remove the injector.
    Then again it starts fine! In less than a second with just one turn it starts like there was no issue.
    Did a leakback test again, 3rd injector leak seems to be considerably reduced. All injectors collectively returns,
    Ignition on - 60 seconds :- 5ml
    Engine Idle - 20 seconds :- 15ml

    To me it looks like the 3rd injector is faulty (you are right 'MollyNomad') but somehow the leak is closed by the force applied. Anyway, this need to be fixed right? So going to show it again to the injector specialist.
    It's kind of relief knowing where the issue is :)
    But I need to know,
    Do I have to go for new injector or can this be refurbished?
    Could this be the reason to the limp mode when accelerating? (I checked the fuel rail sensor connector and boost solenoid, seems to be working fine)

    Thanks in advance,
     
  15. Alibro

    Alibro Well-Known Member

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    Some say you should get all injectors refurbed at the same time. I'm not sure if this is strictly necessary but does make sense if you want to rule out injectors. New injectors will be crazy money so refurbing them is the best value option.
    I'm thinking of getting mine refurbed too so any recommendations for a reputable place to get this done would be welcome.
     
  16. Nodge68

    Nodge68 Well-Known Member

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    Those figures are wrong. You should see ~28,000 Kpa at idle and over 115,000 Kpa at full power.

    Have you checked the rail sensor connection? Those are known to corrode and cause issues.
     
  17. hiruss

    hiruss Member

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    Thanks Alibro & Nodge68,

    A garage offered me a injector from a engine they have imported for parts, for half price of a brand new injector (with one week 'drive & see' warranty). Is it worth?
    Removing intake manifold and all other seems easy compared to removing an injector. So I'm thinking of fixing this one injector and will think of others if they too give trouble in future.
    Will there be any consequences later if I don't replace/refurbish all of them at once?

    I removed the connector and looked inside, seems ok. So applied some contact cleaner and refitted. When I check the sensor output, i checked it from wires and it shows ~1.3V when idling. No stopping or hesitation when I waggle the connector. So I think the connector is ok.
    (Engine won't start if the sensor is unplugged. I'm curious because in some other posts I saw that engine will start even with rail sensor disconnected).
    Reduced fuel pressure must be caused by the leaking injector, right?
    When you say 115,000 Kpa at full power, should the vehicle be stationary or moving?

    Thanks a lot,
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  18. hiruss

    hiruss Member

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    Checked prices,
    Brand new Bosch or genuine injector - 240 £
    Used injector (with one week warranty) - 120 £
    Refurbishing the injector - 173 £

    There's only one local place which can refurbish an injector and they need about a week to do the job ( including importing necessary parts as they don't have them in stock ). And they are charging about
    173 £ for the job. I would rather go for the other 2 options.
     
  19. GrumpyGel

    GrumpyGel Well-Known Member

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  20. pardec

    pardec Active Member

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    I have 2 brand new injectors available
     
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