Diesel Injection Timing S11a

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Ian Yeates

Ian Yeates

Member
Posts
10
Location
York
Hi, I am new to this forum, the timing or so I assume is somewhat less than desirable. The old Series 2a diesel 2.25 is smoking like a train, how I got to where I am.
* When I bought it, about 6 weeks ago, it came with loads of receipts for the engine rebuild all machining work done last year. it started second time every time it was started, however it billowed white smoke (when cold & hot), so I thought ah! Simple injection timing issue. well I Couldn't get it, either smoking with power ( well not like the defender TD5) but some, or get rid of the smoke and no power.
* so next I stripped the camshaft drive timing chain cover off, checked the cam/valve timing, thought great cracked it, it was a tooth out, timed the cam/valves up using DTI, and a protractor on the crankshaft. Spent some time double checking when valves opened and timing marks on the flywheel and TDC, when all double checked good reassembled it, she fired up first turn, this time black smoke, tried retiming the injector pump, couldn't get it. SO! STOP, I thought, think! Being as I had just shifted the cam round I thought it may be logical the injection drive shaft would now be out of position.
* next out came the injection pump, and hey! The drive was out of position. So I retimed that in, now I have the injection pump back in and timed up. Primed the diesel through to the injectors, now it is a complete bugger to start, and still loads of (now) grey smoke.
More instalment will follow,
please feel free to comment, sympathy and advise greatfully received!
The joys of a 50 odd year old Landy...
Only done few hundred miles since full engine rebuild, starting to question whether the rest of it was put together well! I've seen others not fit piston rings properly before, don't want to strip it and won't until I have checked further, I really didn't want another project but I think I have one now....
Still no matter I am going to gave another go at the injection timing, when I get time. The injectors were high on my list of suspects so i'll whip them out and chech them too. Thanks for your reply, I wll try to figure out where the series section is and post the 2a related stuff on there later, again when I get the time. The tappets seem ok but I'll check them as well...
 
Ian Yeates said:
Hi, I am new to this forum, the timing or so I assume is somewhat less than desirable. The old Series 2a diesel 2.25 is smoking like a train, how I got to where I am.
* When I bought it, about 6 weeks ago, it came with loads of receipts for the engine rebuild all machining work done last year. it started second time every time it was started, however it billowed white smoke (when cold & hot), so I thought ah! Simple injection timing issue. well I Couldn't get it, either smoking with power ( well not like the defender TD5) but some, or get rid of the smoke and no power.
* so next I stripped the camshaft drive timing chain cover off, checked the cam/valve timing, thought great cracked it, it was a tooth out, timed the cam/valves up using DTI, and a protractor on the crankshaft. Spent some time double checking when valves opened and timing marks on the flywheel and TDC, when all double checked good reassembled it, she fired up first turn, this time black smoke, tried retiming the injector pump, couldn't get it. SO! STOP, I thought, think! Being as I had just shifted the cam round I thought it may be logical the injection drive shaft would now be out of position.
* next out came the injection pump, and hey! The drive was out of position. So I retimed that in, now I have the injection pump back in and timed up. Primed the diesel through to the injectors, now it is a complete bugger to start, and still loads of (now) grey smoke.
More instalment will follow,
please feel free to comment, sympathy and advise greatfully received!
The joys of a 50 odd year old Landy...
Only done few hundred miles since full engine rebuild, starting to question whether the rest of it was put together well! I've seen others not fit piston rings properly before, don't want to strip it and won't until I have checked further, I really didn't want another project but I think I have one now....
Still no matter I am going to gave another go at the injection timing, when I get time. The injectors were high on my list of suspects so i'll whip them out and chech them too. Thanks for your reply, I wll try to figure out where the series section is and post the 2a related stuff on there later, again when I get the time. The tappets seem ok but I'll check them as well...
Click to expand...
You are in the Series section, so that is all good.

Have you tried the simple things?

Filters, injector service, make sure intake hoses are not collapsed. Valve clearances, as you suggest?
Are your glow plugs working? These engines need glow plugs for a decent start in British conditions.
Are your oil and coolant levels holding stable?

Once you have checked all that, try adjusting the injection pump timing. Make marks, if there are none present, on the pump flange and clamp, so you know where you are. There will be an arrow on the pump body showing direction of rotation.
Try retarding the pump the merest amount, and try and start.
You can start the engine, and move the pump by hand while running.
Not too much, or you may break an injector pipe.
 
1. Remove air filter. Try.
2. Open butterfly valve on intake if fitted. Try.
3. Pop test and pattern injector nozzles. Try.
4. Adjust pump timing. Try, repeat, try.
5. Have pump tested. Repeat 4.
6. Find somewhere quiet and have a little cry.
All presuming rocker gaps are good, fuel is good and cam chain timing and pump drive timing is good.
 
Thanks for your replys gents...
Turboman.
I had already checked fluid levels for fluctuation, all is good on that front (no snotting up of either coolant or lubricant)
Filters are good also.
No restriction in either fuel feed or return.
The glow plugs have at some point been upgraded, the dash (orange lamp) was not wired up correctly, this was a quick fix.

Steve2286w.
Turn ignition to first position (red ignition lamp on), fuel cut off shoots in.
Turn ignition switch to second position (orange glow plug lamp on) hold for 30 seconds.
Turn ignition to engage starter motor, turn engine over for 5 to 10 seconds.
Turn ignition to off position.
Repeat above procedure ( without turning off) fires up after a couple of seconds.

Both of you,
I appreciate your knowledge and experienced, although not very familiar with this 2.25 diesel engine, I know my way around an engine quite well. However I am only human and accept any assistance I may have overlooked something!

Kind regards,
Ian...
 
Hi my apologies to you bobsticle, missed your advise,
1. Remove air filter. Try. Done no issues found
2. Open butterfly valve on intake if fitted. Try. Not fitted
3. Pop test and pattern injector nozzles. Try. Not done as yet, was on to do list
4. Adjust pump timing. Try, repeat, try. Ongoing
5. Have pump tested. Repeat 4. Freshly reconditioned
6. Find somewhere quiet and have a little cry. Not got there yet but resilience is begining to wain
All presuming rocker gaps are good, fuel is good and cam chain timing and pump drive timing is good.
Cam valve timing is good now but was a tooth out. Checked opening and closing of inlet and exhaust valves to protractor on crankshaft when retiming it in.
Injector pump drive shaft was out, this was corrected.

Will try to get another session on it this next week, too many jobs and not enough time, I rally don't have timd for another project
Thanks again to all...
 
Ian Yeates said:
Thanks for your replys gents...
Turboman.
I had already checked fluid levels for fluctuation, all is good on that front (no snotting up of either coolant or lubricant)
Filters are good also.
No restriction in either fuel feed or return.
The glow plugs have at some point been upgraded, the dash (orange lamp) was not wired up correctly, this was a quick fix.

Steve2286w.
Turn ignition to first position (red ignition lamp on), fuel cut off shoots in.
Turn ignition switch to second position (orange glow plug lamp on) hold for 30 seconds.
Turn ignition to engage starter motor, turn engine over for 5 to 10 seconds.
Turn ignition to off position.
Repeat above procedure ( without turning off) fires up after a couple of seconds.

Both of you,
I appreciate your knowledge and experienced, although not very familiar with this 2.25 diesel engine, I know my way around an engine quite well. However I am only human and accept any assistance I may have overlooked something!



Kind regards,
Ian...
Click to expand...
Try and forget everything you think might apply to other engines. These are errrrr.......Different! :D

I wouldn't expect to see any mayonnaise in the oil or water. They don't do that. But rising or falling oil or water can indicate problems.

Just because glow plugs, or any other component, has been "upgraded" isn't the same as knowing that it is working.
I would remove the plugs, and connect them to the wiring, hold them with pliers, earth on the head, and follow the procedure.
You need to see each plug physically glow red, don't worry about lights.
 
Last edited:
Ian Yeates said:
Steve2286w.
Turn ignition to first position (red ignition lamp on), fuel cut off shoots in.
Turn ignition switch to second position (orange glow plug lamp on) hold for 30 seconds.
Turn ignition to engage starter motor, turn engine over for 5 to 10 seconds.
Turn ignition to off position.
Repeat above procedure ( without turning off) fires up after a couple of seconds.

Both of you,
I appreciate your knowledge and experienced, although not very familiar with this 2.25 diesel engine, I know my way around an engine quite well. However I am only human and accept any assistance I may have overlooked something!
Click to expand...

thanks for indulging me and I didn’t want to teach you suck eggs and sometimes it’s difficult to know one’s experience,
Re starting as turboman says the glow plugs need to be working and if you now have the parrallel variety you know they need 12v whereas the old in series type is a lot less so confirm they are wired correct and they don’t need a supplementary earth near no 1 cylinder, 30s time is sufficient for winter so good for summer.
I would have clutch and throttle pedal fully down when cranking but you say you don’t have the butterfly valve in inlet manifold so guess this does not have servo too.
I would also keep cranking till it starts rather than stop at 10secs and even when it’s half started and chugging away keep cranking for 20secs as the compression heat should be building up all the time

the 2a manual is here in case you need it , it has a good fault finder about page 100
http://www.retroanaconda.com/landrover/manuals/2a_owners_manual.pdf
 
Thank you Steve2286w, I know what you mean about guaging others abilities and diagnostic skills! I forgot to mention I hold the clutch pedal down just to make sure there is no additional drag going on.
Because Of my unfailiarity with this power plant (very loose description using the word power) I am very wary of how this lump has been assembled due to the cam/valve timing chain originally a tooth out! Then when I checked the injection drive shaft being out as well, that just makes me a bit wary, not sure if it is normal but the inection drive shaft could not be set at exactly 20° the closest I could achieve was about 6° to 8° over better than the 40° ish it was originally, all I could put this down to is a bad camshaft (cam lobes not in line with the scroll of the drive teeth) maybe a poor aftermarket part? This inaccuracy then in turn limits the amount of adjustment that can be achieved by turning the injector pump, if I expain myself clearly enough?
Thank you for the manual I will have a look through I might find the missing link to my dilema.
I strongly suspect the previous owner sold the car as he could not get it sorted...
I guanantee that I will

Kind regards,
Ian...
 
Ian Yeates said:
Thank you Steve2286w, I know what you mean about guaging others abilities and diagnostic skills! I forgot to mention I hold the clutch pedal down just to make sure there is no additional drag going on.
Because Of my unfailiarity with this power plant (very loose description using the word power) I am very wary of how this lump has been assembled due to the cam/valve timing chain originally a tooth out! Then when I checked the injection drive shaft being out as well, that just makes me a bit wary, not sure if it is normal but the inection drive shaft could not be set at exactly 20° the closest I could achieve was about 6° to 8° over better than the 40° ish it was originally, all I could put this down to is a bad camshaft (cam lobes not in line with the scroll of the drive teeth) maybe a poor aftermarket part? This inaccuracy then in turn limits the amount of adjustment that can be achieved by turning the injector pump, if I expain myself clearly enough?
Thank you for the manual I will have a look through I might find the missing link to my dilema.
I strongly suspect the previous owner sold the car as he could not get it sorted...
I guanantee that I will

Kind regards,
Ian...
Click to expand...
Assuming you know already that changing the cam timing also changes the injection pump timing?

It is also highly likely that the previous owner sold it because he couldn't get it running right.
That is fairly common, you will rarely buy an old Land Rover that doesn't need work.
They were a bit random when new, and have worn out even more over time.

I am sure you will get it sorted out in due course, but it may take a while.

My wife bought a 2a about 3 years ago, moderate condition, and running.
It is petrol, usually considered a better bet than the diesels.
We have been working on it on an off for 3 years, and also put it into two garages to do jobs we didn't have time to do, and change tyres.

It is driveable, legal, and we do use it, but still not really what you could call finished.
By the time it is finished, some of the bits we fitted first off will probably be worn out again! :D
 
Sounds like the pump is goosed.
Almost sounds like my recent engine rebuild. That had new everything and still smoked. The only thing left was a complete pump remanufacture.
 
Turboman said:
Assuming you know already that changing the cam timing also changes the injection pump timing?

It is also highly likely that the previous owner sold it because he couldn't get it running right.
That is fairly common, you will rarely buy an old Land Rover that doesn't need work.
They were a bit random when new, and have worn out even more over time.

I am sure you will get it sorted out in due course, but it may take a while.

My wife bought a 2a about 3 years ago, moderate condition, and running.
It is petrol, usually considered a better bet than the diesels.
We have been working on it on an off for 3 years, and also put it into two garages to do jobs we didn't have time to do, and change tyres.

It is driveable, legal, and we do use it, but still not really what you could call finished.
By the time it is finished, some of the bits we fitted first off will probably be worn out again! :D
Click to expand...
I think one of the biggies is the pump drive. Took me quite a while to get my head round the fact that if that grub screw isn’t seated properly, the drive isn’t at the correct height and the timing shifts. Orible job with the engine in trying to find that hole.
 
Bobsticle said:
I think one of the biggies is the pump drive. Took me quite a while to get my head round the fact that if that grub screw isn’t seated properly, the drive isn’t at the correct height and the timing shifts. Orible job with the engine in trying to find that hole.
Click to expand...
Distributor drive on the petrols isn't much better.
 
Hi all,
The pump has had a full rebiuld.
The grub screw aligning to the location hole in the bushing is somewhat fiddly...
There seems to be very few garages that have the experience with this engine, even fewer that will take it on to fix it, time is my enemy as always. So I was quite prepared to pay someone who is very familiar with it! I refuse to part with readies to someone prepared to just "have a go at it" they will very likely be less capable than myself...
So I will let you guys in on progress after my next session in the shed with her...
In the mean time feel free to add to the string

Regards,
Ian...
 
Ian Yeates said:
Hi all,
The pump has had a full rebiuld.
The grub screw aligning to the location hole in the bushing is somewhat fiddly...
There seems to be very few garages that have the experience with this engine, even fewer that will take it on to fix it, time is my enemy as always. So I was quite prepared to pay someone who is very familiar with it! I refuse to part with readies to someone prepared to just "have a go at it" they will very likely be less capable than myself...
So I will let you guys in on progress after my next session in the shed with her...
In the mean time feel free to add to the string

Regards,
Ian...
Click to expand...
Most garages aren't interested in working on these now.
If it hasn't got a diagnostic socket, modern "technicians" don't want to know.
If you do want to get work done, the best bet is to look around for a local garage owned by an older chap who likes old cars.
He might be willing to fiddle with it himself a bit, while the technicians get on with the modern stuff.
Don't expect it to be cheap, because it is the bosses time.
And don't expect it to happen in a hurry, because he will be working around the other demands of running a business.

Other than that, best idea is to persevere with it yourself. A good manual is helpful.
 
Hi,
Bobsticle, I am the master of the understatement

Turboman, I have approached a few local landy specialists, as you say no one wants to do it... those that do, just want to "have a go" and don't instill any confidence that they know as much as I do...

By the way, just checked the tappets and the glow plugs, as I expected are good...

Cheers,
Ian..
 
Ian Yeates said:
Hi,
Bobsticle, I am the master of the understatement

Turboman, I have approached a few local landy specialists, as you say no one wants to do it... those that do, just want to "have a go" and don't instill any confidence that they know as much as I do...

By the way, just checked the tappets and the glow plugs, as I expected are good...

Cheers,
Ian..
Click to expand...
Another thing that often causes sluggish starting is battery performance. Cranking speed is important.
If not, injector nozzles would be worth a test. Not a lot of money to replace either.
Change all washers, 4 copper, 4 steel, if you remove the injectors. Put the steel washers ridge up.
 
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