Cold start nightmare!?...

Hello All,
I have a 2007 TD4 2.2 160HP Freelander 2 that I bought this time last year. Just after purchase it developed a fault where it simply wouldn't start when the temperature dropped much below 1 degree. The vehicle went back to the garage I bought it from many times and they so say fixed the problem until the three month warranty ran out and they then refused to return my calls. The vehicle behaved itself through most of the summer but now that winter has returned so has the fault but worse than ever now! The engine will turn over but just refuses to fire when it is cold, generally persistence will cause it to eventually start in a puff of smoke about ten minutes after trying! This is now getting worse and worse causing the vehicle to become almost unusable when cold. Once warm it runs and starts fine.
I presumed it would be a glow plug problem but my local garage is doubting this but can't find a fault anywhere. There is a concern that there may not be power getting to the glow plugs apparently (sorry I'm not mechanically minded I'm afraid!) They now seem at a loss and can only suggest that it 'could' be the temperature sensor?
This fault has got so bad that I'm thinking of getting rid but I do love the vehicle apart from this and to be honest don't have any money to buy anything nearly half as nice.
If anyone can shed some light on this in a way that won't mean that I have to take out a second mortgage just to find out what 'may be' wrong it would be very much appreciated?
many thanks
Higgy

Colin Higgins said:

Hello All,
I have a 2007 TD4 2.2 160HP Freelander 2 that I bought this time last year. Just after purchase it developed a fault where it simply wouldn't start when the temperature dropped much below 1 degree. The vehicle went back to the garage I bought it from many times and they so say fixed the problem until the three month warranty ran out and they then refused to return my calls. The vehicle behaved itself through most of the summer but now that winter has returned so has the fault but worse than ever now! The engine will turn over but just refuses to fire when it is cold, generally persistence will cause it to eventually start in a puff of smoke about ten minutes after trying! This is now getting worse and worse causing the vehicle to become almost unusable when cold. Once warm it runs and starts fine.
I presumed it would be a glow plug problem but my local garage is doubting this but can't find a fault anywhere. There is a concern that there may not be power getting to the glow plugs apparently (sorry I'm not mechanically minded I'm afraid!) They now seem at a loss and can only suggest that it 'could' be the temperature sensor?
This fault has got so bad that I'm thinking of getting rid but I do love the vehicle apart from this and to be honest don't have any money to buy anything nearly half as nice.
If anyone can shed some light on this in a way that won't mean that I have to take out a second mortgage just to find out what 'may be' wrong it would be very much appreciated?
many thanks
Higgy

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Did they change the glow plugs?

Anyone with a multimeter can check power is getting to the plugs. This is where I would start.

Hi Higgy.
As anyone yet added another earth strap from the battery direct to the starter motor bolt, if not I would suggest you try this, also check that the starter motor contacts and plunger are in good condition, as your car is now 10 years old I would imagine the starter contacts would need changing, easy job and the parts only cost £14.00, but yes please check the earth strap, it may only have the short one going to the inside of the passenger wing, I have added a few photo's below on how I added my extra earth strap, this will help with a good turn over from cold.

have the same problem with mine but the problem arises when it is -10 and below which is a normal problem here in Sweden. There are engine warming kits that you can purchase, from calix or defa and they are either put straight into the motor block by removing a frost plug and inserting a cup kettle type warming tube or into the water pipes or by a block warmer which sticks to sump, warming the oil. At the moment I have a calix system which to be honest struggles to warm the engine when it hits below -10. I am actually thinking of adding a block warmer to supplement the water pipe heater I have. In the f2 putting in a motor heater in the block (which I think is the best system) involves dropping the engine a process for which I have neither the time for or the courage to undertake. But as others have said check the earth straps and the condition of the battery both of these greatly affect the starting capabilities of a car.

Some if not all FL2 diesels should have either an ( FBH ) fuel burning heater, for over seas models anyway ? I have sent you a link through PM Arctic.

Many thanks All for your replies they really are appreciated.

We have now fully tested the electrical system and from what we can see the glow plugs all seem fine, The relay is working as it should be and fuses are good. Earths were very corroded so we have cleaned those up also. If you manually operate the plugs it fires up first time, but take this away and it fails to start again. This seems to point to a fault somewhere between the plugs and the fuse box? Due to the cold weather factor I'm thinking that it must be a sensor that's preventing the plugs from working?
Could it be a 'air intake temperature sensor' fault or some other sensor? Unfortunately Google or Haynes are not helping with locating where these sensors are? there are a good number of sensors but I'm really struggling with locations for what I need to look at, can anyone help with this if you think I'm on the right lines now please?

Arctic 2 - Thanks for the tip about the earth I will look into this.

It does seem to point towards there being cold start faults within this model also as I have spoken with others who have had similar problems and never managed to solve them resulting in them getting rid of the vehicle in shear frustration! However I want to fix this if I possibly can so further thoughts and advice would be very much appreciated.

Many thanks

Higgy

The glow plug activation will be controlled by the EDC, using data from the coolant temperature sensor.

Thanks Nodge68,
I presume this means that the fault quite likely sits with the Coolant temperature sensor then?

If the coolant temp sensor was unplugged, would the ECU then go to a 'default' that would turn the glow plugs on? It might diagnose that the sensor is at fault if the car starts - as you've proven the glow plug setup is working OK manually.

Would it throw any faults that would need to be cleared if you disconnect the sensor?

We have the ability to clear faults so that's not a problem. Worth a go as I'm sure it has to be one of those sensors not sure where the coolant temperature sensor is, it wasn't obvious when I looked earlier although I could have been looking in the wrong place!
I'll try this first thing in the morning as once the car is even a tiny bit warm it won't fault!
I also have an air intake temp sensor coming for the morning as they are less than £20 and simple to change so nothing to lose in trying that, If it persists it points at the other sensor or a wiring fault I suppose.
I'll let you know how we get on with the different things as from speaking with other LR owners I'm of the understanding that this 'cold start problem' seems to be quite a common fault.
I am going to 'double earth' whilst we're messing around with it, as again, nothing to lose!
I can only imagine how much Land Rover would be charging me to try and fix this!

Colin Higgins said:

Thanks Nodge68,
I presume this means that the fault quite likely sits with the Coolant temperature sensor then?

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Potentially. The EDC will probably tru to get a temperature reading from the intake sensor, if the coolant sensor isn't giving a valid value. Manufacturers implement different strategies to each other, so it's difficult to be 100% sure.
Is there a delay in cranking while the glow light is on?

No delay Nodge68. The temperature gauge is working so we presume this means that the Coolant Sensor is working and sending correct information? I think this sends to the temperature gauge unless someone else can tell me differently? It's definitely a 'cold air/weather' problem and that's why we've leaned towards air intake temperature sensor but we could be completely wrong!?

Colin Higgins said:

No delay Nodge68. The temperature gauge is working so we presume this means that the Coolant Sensor is working and sending correct information? I think this sends to the temperature gauge unless someone else can tell me differently? It's definitely a 'cold air/weather' problem and that's why we've leaned towards air intake temperature sensor but we could be completely wrong!?

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No start delay is the key here. If the EDC isn't delaying the start, then the glow plugs aren't being activated. As to the reason. That's what needs identifying. Has a decent code reader been used to interrogate the EDC yet?

Yes two code readers plus it's been on diagnostics at my local garage and they don't throw up anything other that a 'turbo gate' fault but that's because it's unplugged and the vehicle was faulting long before that was unplugged. Obviously when you are just cranking it over for 10-15 minutes it goes mental and throws up loads of stuff but once cleared it doesn't come back so these are just down to the 'stop/start & ignition on/off' of trying to get it going I think. Once cleared and the vehicle is warm all is fine!

Colin Higgins said:

The temperature gauge is working so we presume this means that the Coolant Sensor is working and sending correct information?

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I don't know much about the F2 TD4 - but many engines have 2 temp sensors, one for the ECU and another for the dash gauge - so what the gauge is showing does not necessarily correlate to what the ECU is seeing.

Thank you GrumpyGel I'll keep this in mind. I will be back out on it again tomorrow so hopefully bottom it out before this snow comes!!

Ok so we changed the air intake temp sensor and the old one did look a bit sorry for itself (picture attached new one on left). This has resulted in the car running much much better when warm but hasn't stopped the cold start problem. Next thing will be to locate the Coolant Temperature Sensor and check this out. Can anyone tell me where this sensor is located and how to access it please as I can't find a listing for it's location anywhere?

It's true the FL2 glow plug heating is based on the temp of the coolant sensor. The engine computer only activates the glow plugs to pre-heat them when the temp of the coolant is cold. Duration of pre-heating is dependent on temp. Cooler = pre-heats a bit longer. There is a back logic backup if the coolant sensor fails but it should display a code if that happens. The glow plug lamp ont dash will illuminate when the glow plugs are pre-heating. If it stays on longer then they're working longer. The glow plugs can also heat during cranking (while turning over engine to try to start) and when it's fired and running to give it a bit of help when cold. It's ok if it tries to crank/start then fails, then automatically tries again. This is how the FL2 works. There's also monitoring of the pre-heat process. The glow plug dash lamp should stay illuminated if it senses there's a problem.

On the FL2 diesel... the coolant temp sensor is to the right of the engine. Take oft the big snake like pipe that runs over the top of the engine cover. Also take oft the engine cover. Yer will see 2x large coolant pipes near the top right of the side of the engine. The coolant sensor hides/plugs int back of there. It's a thermistor that changes resistance depending on temp. I have a sneaky feeling coolant will p*ss out if yer remove it. Haynes advises to drain the coolant first before removing the sensor.

If yer only 2 inches tall and yer stand ont top of the gearbox, then look up towards the side of the engine, ere's some pic's of the 2 water pipes. Coolant temp sensor arrowed (at the back with a bit of green on it):


CoolantSensor01 LKDtTDu


CoolantSensor02 WlqBd1X

That's great thank you Hippo.
We tested the resistance of the plugs again and they weren't reading consistently pointing to potential problem with at least one plug. My local garage changed them but it was found on bench test that the old plugs (which were infact quite new) seemed to be working ok! We put brand new NGKs in anyway.
Since this the weather has been mild until yesterday when it was a little colder but not freezing, so on trying a cold(ish) start last night it failed on first push of the button but started second push. Not sure what this means for when it does get below freezing!?...
I've now thrown over £500 at it now and still not sure if it's 100% fixed or not.
I'm not getting any delayed starting and on the very very rare occassion I've seen the coil light it's been for a 'micro' second!
A lot of what we have discovered, I think, points to ongoing and probably long-term starting problems with the vehicle and possibly the reason why the previous owner got shot of it and it sat 'in trade' for a very long time. I also suspect that the selling garage knew this and 'humoured' me by eagerly having the vehicle back 'to fix' but in reality doing nothing so the warranty ran out. They then refused to take my calls!
Any way I'm stuck with it now and have to sort this out somehow!...

Next time it's really cold... turn on the electrics only with yer feet oft the pedals. Let it power up electrics only then switch oft. Then do the same again. Then do the same again. Then put yer foot ont brake, start as yer would normally so it powers the electrics and auto tries to start... is that betterer?