Advice on smokey engine.

oldmanbitter · Jan 13, 2011

Hi all. I recently bought a series 2a with an early type 2.25 diesel. It started and ran fine, but on acceleration black smoke came out, which I put down to worn injectors.

I have done quite a bit of work on the engine/fuel system, but now it is difficult to start and clouds of grey/white smoke appear, the engine does not run smoothly and has no power. Can anyone tell me what I have missed?

Here is the work I did -

Fitted new injector nozzles and had the opening pressure set.
Took off and cleaned the fuel tank and filled with fresh diesel.
Replaced all the fuel lines with clear hose so I could see if there were air bubbles.
Replaced the fuel filter and cleaned the air filter.
Replaced the lift pump.
Took off the injector pump, and reset it to 16 on the flywheel and A in the little window (it is an early type one), which was 20degrees on the vertical drive gear.
Replaced the cylinder head gasket (3 times!)
Set the rockers and as they were worn, I replaced the ball pins on them.
As none of this worked, I bought brand new "old stock" original land rover injectors and replaced the existing ones.

The only think that I can think that may be still a problem is that the injector pump is worn, but the landy was running fine before (except for the black smoke) and is now unuseable, even though I have put money and time into it.

Can anyone offer any advice or help. It would be most welcome - Ian

dr pepper · Jan 13, 2011

Worn injectors can cause black smoke, but more often a bad spray pattern from a knacked injector causes white smoke.
Black smoke is unburnt fuel, I'd be checking the pump adjustments to make sure the engine isnt overfueled, might also be worth trying adjusting the timing just a little.
If its a dpa pump then if the transfer pump pressure is low then that can cause black smoke, but they usually last well over 100,000 miles.

hughesy · Jan 13, 2011

Lots of white smoke after you've been messing with the injector pump timing. Hmmmmm, let me think..............................

oldmanbitter · Jan 13, 2011

Hey dr pepper. The smoke is not black anymore as I have replaced the injectors with new ones. That was the problem, but now it's worse!

hughesy - I'm not sure what you mean by "messing" with the injector pump timing. I have re-set it according to the manual.

blue beasty · Jan 13, 2011

dr pepper said:
Worn injectors can cause black smoke, but more often a bad spray pattern from a knacked injector causes white smoke.
Black smoke is unburnt fuel, I'd be checking the pump adjustments to make sure the engine isnt overfueled, might also be worth trying adjusting the timing just a little.
If its a dpa pump then if the transfer pump pressure is low then that can cause black smoke, but they usually last well over 100,000 miles.

er.......no.....:doh: black smoke is burnt oil!......white is steam....bluey white (grey?) is unburnt fuel.....

peter8315 · Jan 13, 2011

if you have fitted new nozzles, theres only one thing it can be, you will find it will need retarding and this will get rid of the smoke, i had one of the 2,25 engines and could not retard it enough due to wear in pump, had to take the drive gear out put it in vice get it red hot and twist it to get more retard, some file the slots out on the pump body but be carefull if you file the slots out if you file to much you will nacker the body.

blue beasty · Jan 13, 2011

......unless...........its water......how sure are you of the head gasket? Have you checked?

oldmanbitter · Jan 13, 2011

peter8315 said:
if you have fitted new nozzles, theres only one thing it can be, you will find it will need retarding and this will get rid of the smoke, i had one of the 2,25 engines and could not retard it enough due to wear in pump, had to take the drive gear out put it in vice get it red hot and twist it to get more retard, some file the slots out on the pump body but be carefull if you file the slots out if you file to much you will nacker the body.

So to retard it, I turn it anti-clockwise (looking down on the pump)?. If it won't retard far enough then it needs an overhaul I guess. Are there any parts I can replace, or is it only repairable by a specialist?

oldmanbitter · Jan 13, 2011

blue beasty said:
......unless...........its water......how sure are you of the head gasket? Have you checked?

I've replaced the head gasket twice and both times it's been perfect.

peter8315 · Jan 13, 2011

i can't remember wich way it turns, but whatever way it turns when turning engine over, you will have to turn with it, if you turn against it that will advance the pump

jamesmartin · Jan 13, 2011

are you sure it was 16 on flywheel i thought it was 13v /14 you could rebuild it all your self the hardest part is fitting timing chain at exhaust peak with dti and scribe ,i would remove pump and small stub shaft,oil filter as theres a screw behind filter gasket ,remove screw and remove skew gear ,this has a lot of the slack in timing when worn ,has to be put back carefully as master spline needs to be 20 degrees towards drivers side of front pump stud when all backlash held out and the line hole for screw

oldmanbitter · Jan 13, 2011

jamesmartin said:
are you sure it was 16 on flywheel i thought it was 13v /14 you could rebuild it all your self the hardest part is fitting timing chain at exhaust peak with dti and scribe ,i would remove pump and small stub shaft,oil filter as theres a screw behind filter gasket ,remove screw and remove skew gear ,this has a lot of the slack in timing when worn ,has to be put back carefully as master spline needs to be 20 degrees towards drivers side of front pump stud when all backlash held out and the line hole for screw

It's an early type pump, so at 16 degrees on the flywheel the master spline is at 20 degrees and you can set the pump by opening up a little cover on the pump body and setting it to "A". On later models it's set to 15 degrees or 13 degrees and there is no cover. I can buy a reconditioned pump for £350, which is a lot of money, but worth it if it solves the problem.

nrgserv · Jan 13, 2011

blue beasty said:
er.......no..... black smoke is burnt oil!......white is steam....bluey white (grey?) is unburnt fuel.....

black smoke is excess fuel.

blue is oil

grey unburnt fuel

white steam

last 2 can be confused with each other.

personally i would advance it (turn clockwise) with it running and see what happens. (advancing it)

too far retarded, which i think is what you have, will allow the compression to dissipate before the fuel is injected causing bad starting. will also allow exhaust valve to open before all the fuel is burnt giving a whitey/grey smoke.

can you photo your pump, as i have heard of another forum member talk of this "timing window" and dont think i have seen one before.

edit. didnt realise there was a page 2 and nearly posted. had a quick read and decided to post anyway, may help along the line.

dr pepper · Jan 14, 2011

Er blue beasty I have to correct you there.

Black smoke isnt oil burning its partially burned fuel.
White can be steam, but more usually its diesel that hasnt ignited at all ie vaporised (grey smoke).
Blue smoke is oil being burnt.

Timing sounds like the issue then.

Edit: i didnt relaise it was page 2 either and repeated the above, ah well.

oldmanbitter · Jan 14, 2011

I haven't taken my pump out, but this is what it looks like

I advanced the timing, but it was worse, so I've retarded it as far as it will go and it is much better, but might need to go a bit more. If I remove the pump and then move the inside the right way before putting it back in, it will mean that I won't have to file the slots away as it will already be retarded.

nrgserv · Jan 14, 2011

do you use the timing tool to set the pointer on the block, that lines up with the timing mark on the pump? (line on base in photo)
had forgotten bout this till i saw the line, and cant recall it being mentioned.

also not seen a dpc pump like that with a solenoid stuck out the top.

which way did you turn it to retard it? clockwise or anticlockwise from the top?

oldmanbitter · Jan 14, 2011

nrgserv said:
do you use the timing tool to set the pointer on the block, that lines up with the timing mark on the pump? (line on base in photo)
had forgotten bout this till i saw the line, and cant recall it being mentioned.

also not seen a dpc pump like that with a solenoid stuck out the top.

which way did you turn it to retard it? clockwise or anticlockwise from the top?

Don't use the timing tool for these because you can open up the little window to set the pump, then drop it in when the flywheel pointer is at 16 degrees and the master spline is at 20 degrees. Then you move the little pointer on the block to line up with the mark on the pump. Then "if" the pump is in good order, the timing should be perfect! Of course after 40 odd years my pump is not in good order, so I turned it anti-clockwise looking from the top.

nrgserv · Jan 14, 2011

where are you , out of interest?

oldmanbitter · Jan 14, 2011

I'm in County Kerry in Ireland.

nrgserv · Jan 14, 2011

ah.
i wont pop round then.

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