3.9 overheating

I've just become the owner of a tidy RR Vogue SE 3.9; purchased it
yesterday, all the electrics work, brand new tailgate, clean interior and
exterior etc etc. It's done 114,000 mles, and upto 81,000 (3 years ago) it
was serviced religously by the same LR dealer, and all the receipts and
stamps are present. It was MOT'd last month, with no issues, so I thought
it was a bargain.

However there is a slight problem with the engine. I drove it back home 30
miles away, and it was a dream to drive. However the temp gauge was running
on the high side, bordering on the white and the red, with some very slight
swings towards the white a bit more. When I got home, I let it cool and
checked the coolant levels. It was a little low, so I topped it up, and
went out again. However it was getting hot again, so I got back home to
investigate. The rad pipes were red hot to touch, and I could hear a
hissing sound from the expansion tank. After a few minutes of engine off I
slowly opened the expansion tank, to be greeted by a waterfall of boiling
hot water pouring out the tank. After about 20 mins I filled the tank back
up, and without the cap on, started the engine. My mate was round (an
aircraft mechanic) and he watched the tank as the engine was running for
signs of bubbles (Head gasket?), but there were none. Everything was OK for
about 5 minutes, when suddenly a mass of air/gas worked its way through the
pipes and then more hot water came gushing out the tank.

I changed the thermostat this morning, flushed the radiator (in case of
blockage), I couldnt flush the heads because I couldnt get the drain nuts
off, problem still there. Any ideas anyone?? As mentioned, don't think its
head gasket as there are no bubbles in the expansion tank, and nothing
coming out the sides of the heads, however I'd welcome your opinions.

I think I've been stung, although in hindsight I paid below the book price
for it so Caveat Emptor.....I actually phoned the seller (a trader) back; he
maintained that in the few weeks he's had it he's been using it and claims
that it did not have this problem, sort of confirmed by the fact that it was
warm when I went to buy it, so if he did know, surely he'd have sold it me
cold?? Anyway after much discussion he's agreed to send me some money back,
although I'm not holding my breath..........

> My mate was round (an
>aircraft mechanic) and he watched the tank as the engine was running for
>signs of bubbles (Head gasket?), but there were none. Everything was OK for
>about 5 minutes, when suddenly a mass of air/gas worked its way through the
>pipes and then more hot water came gushing out the tank.

I'm confused about hot water gushing out the tank - this happens when
you take the cap off a hot engine because only the pressure stops it
boiling. Once you take the pressure away it boils violently out of
the top. If it is suddenly doing this without the cap ever being on
then ISTM it has to be air pressure from the compression cycle.

If air is suddenly rushing through would that perhaps indicate that
the head gasket is only blowing once a certain temp has been reached?

Might be worth a compression test - hot and cold?

HTH




--

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig"
'77 101FC Ambulance aka "Burrt"
'03 Volvo V70

"Pacman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've just become the owner of a tidy RR Vogue SE 3.9; purchased it
> yesterday, all the electrics work, brand new tailgate, clean interior and
> exterior etc etc. It's done 114,000 mles, and upto 81,000 (3 years ago)
> it was serviced religously by the same LR dealer, and all the receipts and
> stamps are present. It was MOT'd last month, with no issues, so I thought
> it was a bargain.
>
> However there is a slight problem with the engine. I drove it back home 30
> miles away, and it was a dream to drive. However the temp gauge was
> running on the high side, bordering on the white and the red, with some
> very slight swings towards the white a bit more. When I got home, I let it
> cool and checked the coolant levels. It was a little low, so I topped it
> up, and went out again. However it was getting hot again, so I got back
> home to investigate. The rad pipes were red hot to touch, and I could
> hear a hissing sound from the expansion tank. After a few minutes of
> engine off I slowly opened the expansion tank, to be greeted by a
> waterfall of boiling hot water pouring out the tank. After about 20 mins
> I filled the tank back up, and without the cap on, started the engine. My
> mate was round (an aircraft mechanic) and he watched the tank as the
> engine was running for signs of bubbles (Head gasket?), but there were
> none. Everything was OK for about 5 minutes, when suddenly a mass of
> air/gas worked its way through the pipes and then more hot water came
> gushing out the tank.
>
> I changed the thermostat this morning, flushed the radiator (in case of
> blockage), I couldnt flush the heads because I couldnt get the drain nuts
> off, problem still there. Any ideas anyone?? As mentioned, don't think
> its head gasket as there are no bubbles in the expansion tank, and nothing
> coming out the sides of the heads, however I'd welcome your opinions.
>
> I think I've been stung, although in hindsight I paid below the book price
> for it so Caveat Emptor.....I actually phoned the seller (a trader) back;
> he maintained that in the few weeks he's had it he's been using it and
> claims that it did not have this problem, sort of confirmed by the fact
> that it was warm when I went to buy it, so if he did know, surely he'd
> have sold it me cold?? Anyway after much discussion he's agreed to send
> me some money back, although I'm not holding my breath..........

Sounds like the dreaded liner problem, I'm afraid, but has to be worth
replacing the thermostat first. Fit an 82 degree one, not the std 88.
Badger.

did it only boil when you took the cap off? if so, what Tim says is correct.
Are you losing water at all, I dont mean a leak but are you having to top it
up? I thought my V8 90 was over heating and it turned out to be the temp
transmitter.
Richard


"MVP" <mr.nice@*nospam*softhome.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:42:20 +0100, Tim Hobbs
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> My mate was round (an
>>>aircraft mechanic) and he watched the tank as the engine was running for
>>>signs of bubbles (Head gasket?), but there were none. Everything was OK
>>>for
>>>about 5 minutes, when suddenly a mass of air/gas worked its way through
>>>the
>>>pipes and then more hot water came gushing out the tank.
>>
>>I'm confused about hot water gushing out the tank - this happens when
>>you take the cap off a hot engine because only the pressure stops it
>>boiling. Once you take the pressure away it boils violently out of
>>the top. If it is suddenly doing this without the cap ever being on
>>then ISTM it has to be air pressure from the compression cycle.
>>
>>If air is suddenly rushing through would that perhaps indicate that
>>the head gasket is only blowing once a certain temp has been reached?
>>
>>Might be worth a compression test - hot and cold?
>>
>>HTH
>
> stab in the dark here, but could it have gushed in such a manner
> having been waiting for the thermostat to open thus allowing pressure
> from a head gasket failure/failing to over-pressurise the rest of the
> system and thus gush from the open expansion tank?
>
> overly hot pipes would make me think about the radiator not doing it's
> job (much damage/blockage) or the water pump failing to move the water
> through the radiator?
>
> Just throwing ideas in, I know bugger-all about V8's.
>
>
> Regards.
> Mark.
> --
> _________________________________________
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>

>
> I'm confused about hot water gushing out the tank - this happens when
> you take the cap off a hot engine because only the pressure stops it
> boiling. Once you take the pressure away it boils violently out of
> the top. If it is suddenly doing this without the cap ever being on
> then ISTM it has to be air pressure from the compression cycle.
>
It is doing it without the cap on.

> If air is suddenly rushing through would that perhaps indicate that
> the head gasket is only blowing once a certain temp has been reached?
>
> Might be worth a compression test - hot and cold?

If it is the head gasket, what sort of results could I expect? Would I have
to change the gasket on both heads, assuming that the results indicated
which head was at fault?

Bit of a novice on V8s..sorry!

Paul

> stab in the dark here, but could it have gushed in such a manner
> having been waiting for the thermostat to open thus allowing pressure
> from a head gasket failure/failing to over-pressurise the rest of the
> system and thus gush from the open expansion tank?

Those are the symptoms....the water just sits there, then all of a sudden,
it appears as if something has just opened to let a load of water through.
>
> overly hot pipes would make me think about the radiator not doing it's
> job (much damage/blockage) or the water pump failing to move the water
> through the radiator?

I flushed the radiator, but I didnt take it out and do a reverse flush...
>
> Just throwing ideas in, I know bugger-all about V8's.

You probably know more than me!!!!!!

Paul

"Richard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> did it only boil when you took the cap off? if so, what Tim says is
> correct. Are you losing water at all, I dont mean a leak but are you
> having to top it up? I thought my V8 90 was over heating and it turned out
> to be the temp transmitter.
> Richard
>
>
When I stop the engine, there is a hissing coming from the expansion tank
cap...even though its on tight....I've never owned a V8 before, but even
with my limited knowledge it doesnt sound normal....

Paul

i got the same thing with my V8 landy today, but i think the reason for me was a bit more simple! a dirrty radioator, and a VERY dirty engine. !

> If the rad has been flushed then that discounts that possibility, also
> water pump not pumping the water around mebbe? I don't know if the
> water pumps on V8's are a similar affair to the diesels I'm more
> familiar with.

Someone else mentioned water pump...apparently fins get corroded and dont
pump efficiently.
>
> Can you whip the thermostat out and run it without for test?
> my thoughts being that if the cooling system is being overpressurised
> then the opening thermostat could be allowing this pressure through to
> the expansion tank, by removing the thermostat temporarily this
> pressure will be evident much sooner and hopefully less dramatically.

Again, this was mentioned. I've replaced the thermostat, but to be honest I
havent been on a long run since changing it. I'm going to run it for a few
days, keep my eye on the coolant level (checking when cold) to see if water
is being lost anywhere.

>
> Maybe an academic excercise as a head gasket blowing into the water
> jacket sounds likely to me, though I'm not sure how the symptoms
> compare to those of the slippy-liners,

What are slippy liners? And where's the water jacket?
>
>

Thanks,
Paul

"Pacman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> When I stop the engine, there is a hissing coming from the expansion tank
> cap...even though its on tight....I've never owned a V8 before, but even
> with my limited knowledge it doesnt sound normal....
>
> Paul

Had this on an Espace. Tom also had this on his 101. In Both our cases it
was a leaking expansion cap. Allows the pressure to escape and thus the
water to boil hence overheating.

My hit list would be

1 New cap
2 New sensor
3 Explore head gasket

HTH

Lee D
--

www.lrproject.com

Workshop photos from Landrover repairs
& other such tinkerings.
Home of Percy the Jag powered Landrover

On or around Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:24:30 +0100, "Pacman"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>I think I've been stung, although in hindsight I paid below the book price
>for it so Caveat Emptor.....I actually phoned the seller (a trader) back; he
>maintained that in the few weeks he's had it he's been using it and claims
>that it did not have this problem, sort of confirmed by the fact that it was
>warm when I went to buy it, so if he did know, surely he'd have sold it me
>cold?? Anyway after much discussion he's agreed to send me some money back,
>although I'm not holding my breath..........

Does it have aircon?

Sister's BF had many hassles with an overheating 3.9, and I suspect they
were never really resolved until he removed the aircon rad. I suspect that
is incompatible with wokring aircon, though.

when it's hot you often get that hot waterfall effect, IME.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".

On or around Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:11:16 +0100, MVP
<mr.nice@*nospam*softhome.net> enlightened us thusly:

>stab in the dark here, but could it have gushed in such a manner
>having been waiting for the thermostat to open thus allowing pressure
>from a head gasket failure/failing to over-pressurise the rest of the
>system and thus gush from the open expansion tank?

it gushes thusly because you've depressurised and made it boil almost
instantly.

water at 15 psi overpressure doesn't boil if more than 100°C, as soon as you
depressurise it, this water at 100+ flashes to steam, or some of it does.

It's not, by itself, sypmtomatic, except in as much as it shows you that the
system does indeed pressurise as it should.


Overhaeting likely to be down to poor airflow, partly blocked rad, and hot
weather, in one or another combination.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".

On or around Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:32:20 +0100, MVP
<mr.nice@*nospam*softhome.net> enlightened us thusly:

>If the rad has been flushed then that discounts that possibility,

IME, it's next-to-impossible effectively to flush a partly-blocked rad. The
amount of water you can introduce from any normal sort of supply will be
acrried easily by about 10% of the radiator tubes, so a half-blocked rad
won't clear by flushing it.


--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:32:20 +0100, MVP
> <mr.nice@*nospam*softhome.net> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>If the rad has been flushed then that discounts that possibility,
>
> IME, it's next-to-impossible effectively to flush a partly-blocked rad.
> The
> amount of water you can introduce from any normal sort of supply will be
> acrried easily by about 10% of the radiator tubes, so a half-blocked rad
> won't clear by flushing it.

Fill with a solution of caustic soda, wait an hour or so, then re-flush.
Just make sure you get it all flushed out before refitting, ally engine bits
don't take too kindly to caustic soda, even a mild dose!
Badger.

>
>>If the rad has been flushed then that discounts that possibility,
>
> IME, it's next-to-impossible effectively to flush a partly-blocked rad.
> The
> amount of water you can introduce from any normal sort of supply will be
> acrried easily by about 10% of the radiator tubes, so a half-blocked rad
> won't clear by flushing it.
>
I think the cause is a blocked rad, as the top pipe is a lot hotter than the
bottom pipe, so it looks like it will have to come off. Will shoving my
jet washer in it clear it more effectively??

Paul

>>
>I think the cause is a blocked rad, as the top pipe is a lot hotter than the
>bottom pipe,

Doesn't that actually prove the opposite?

Is the radiator an even temperature or are there hot / cold spots?


--

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig"
'77 101FC Ambulance aka "Burrt"
'03 Volvo V70

>
> Doesn't that actually prove the opposite?
>
> Is the radiator an even temperature or are there hot / cold spots?
>

It must be the heat, sending me mad!!!

that is what its supposed to do isnt it?? :-/

Paul

"Pacman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I think the cause is a blocked rad, as the top pipe is a lot hotter than
the
> bottom pipe, so it looks like it will have to come off. Will shoving my
> jet washer in it clear it more effectively??
>
>
>


If the top hose is hotter then the bottom hose then it sounds like the rad
is OK. If it is blocked it can't transfer the heat from the water to the air
blowing through the gills, so the bottom hose would be nearly the same temp
as the top.

I wouldn't read too much into there being no stream of bubbles in the header
tank. Very often the leaking gasket/liner send the bubbles to some dead end
part of the system where they build up into a big air lock until there is no
more room. That's when you get the sudden rush of water from the filler cap
as the air lock acts like a spring.

The only way to be sure is to have a local garage do a cylinder leakage
test. Each cylinder in turn is set at top dead centre on the firing stroke
and compressed air fed into the spark plug hole. This will show up blowby on
the piston rings, and if a head gasket has gone, the pressure in the water
system will rise when the faulty cylinder is pressurised.

A cheaper, less accurate method is to remove the spark plugs and see if one
of them looks noticeably cleaner then the others - a blown head gasket tends
to steam clean the plug in the faulty cylinder.

Finally, one more pointer. If you're not used to a V8 this may be difficult
to spot, but if when you start it in the morning it only fires up on 7
cylinders for a few seconds, things don't look good. When the engine was
last switched off the residual pressure in the cooling system will often
push water through the faulty head gasket into the hot cylinder, where it
evaporates and condenses on the plug causing an initial misfire. If this is
happening to you regularly, try CAREFULLY releasing the pressure from the
cooling system after the last run of the day. If the next day it starts on
all 8, a head gasket is highly likely.

The good news is Rover V8 head gaskets are relatively cheap and easy to fix
yourself! (Well, relative to a V6 Mondeo, anyway!)

Hope this helps,
Andy
110 V8

"Andy Fox" <nospam> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Pacman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
<snip>
> The only way to be sure is to have a local garage do a cylinder leakage
> test. Each cylinder in turn is set at top dead centre on the firing stroke
> and compressed air fed into the spark plug hole. This will show up blowby
> on
> the piston rings, and if a head gasket has gone, the pressure in the water
> system will rise when the faulty cylinder is pressurised.

Only shows up the slipped liner problem if everything is at working temp,
though, so not a foolproof test.

> A cheaper, less accurate method is to remove the spark plugs and see if
> one
> of them looks noticeably cleaner then the others - a blown head gasket
> tends
> to steam clean the plug in the faulty cylinder.

I agree, the plug will have nearly no carbon on it at all.

> Finally, one more pointer. If you're not used to a V8 this may be
> difficult
> to spot, but if when you start it in the morning it only fires up on 7
> cylinders for a few seconds, things don't look good. When the engine was
> last switched off the residual pressure in the cooling system will often
> push water through the faulty head gasket into the hot cylinder, where it
> evaporates and condenses on the plug causing an initial misfire. If this
> is
> happening to you regularly, try CAREFULLY releasing the pressure from the
> cooling system after the last run of the day. If the next day it starts on
> all 8, a head gasket is highly likely.

Nice one Andy, not heard of that being done for a lot of years, I'd
forgotten all about it!

> The good news is Rover V8 head gaskets are relatively cheap and easy to
> fix
> yourself! (Well, relative to a V6 Mondeo, anyway!)

Try doing a Jag V12!!!
Badger.

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:47:52 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>
>> The good news is Rover V8 head gaskets are relatively cheap and easy to
>> fix
>> yourself! (Well, relative to a V6 Mondeo, anyway!)
>
>Try doing a Jag V12!!!
>Badger.
>

I'll see your Jag V12 and raise you a quad cam 5.0 V8 Merc.

<sulk>
Poxy thing.

/<s>
David