jatco slipping

here we go, lol

gave the landy a good run today as it hasn't had one for around a month

it started to jump gears , manily 3-4 th gears

then the revs climbed then changed , went round to nearly 4,000 revs

decided to take it down the country lanes where it's nice a hilly ,giving it a good clear out, not thrashing it but allowing the box to change as many times as possible

the problem has seemed to resolve it self , whether it's because it hasn't had a run but i suspect i may have to investigate further

my concern is to get the box out or leave it , if I leave the box worried it may cause damage , i plugged in the hawkeye , no dtcs shown , done the oil only a few months ago

was actually thinking of maybe doing another oil change to see if any bits etc come out

would be happy to try and get a rebuild kit and sit there and do it myself , as i believe they are diy kits where no bearing removers etc are required

going to try and have a good read up but just didn't know if many of u guys have had this

it's nearly on 180,000 miles and to date has been a faultless car over the last 4 years I've owned it and don't want to just throw in the towel and give up on it as its served me very well

is it easy to drop the box out or easier to do the work in situ

turned the synergy box off by pulling the maf and fuel sensor lead off and reconnecting the leads to isolate that , made no difference

over a 2 hour period it done it say around 4 times , mainly on an incline

I stopped it up a very steep hill, put it into neutral , then i to drive , took my foot off the brake and it didn't roll back, put my foot on the accelerator and didn't slip at all , done that a few times and was fine

thks again guys and hope u didn't mind me asking

gary

Not really my subject mate re freelander.

But check this out:

http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f9/help-jatco-td4-auto-box-252796.html

Loads of info/links here. Might be something you can pick up on.

Longbolt said:

Not really my subject mate re freelander.

But check this out:

http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f9/help-jatco-td4-auto-box-252796.html

Loads of info/links here. Might be something you can pick up on.

Click to expand...

thks mate

have been reading that and didn't realise that it seems quite a common problem as they age

going to do another oil change , done one a few months ago and may or not give me some sort of indication as the old oil comes out

see also getting the box out isn't very easy as the ird and both drive shafts have to come out so a big job indeed

seen some on ebay for around 300-500 quid where they've been taken out of other motors but could easily be a pile of junk and recon ones are around a grand

will just have to consider my options and weigh them up on the facts i have before me

gstuart said:

thks mate

have been reading that and didn't realise that it seems quite a common problem as they age

going to do another oil change , done one a few months ago and may or not give me some sort of indication as the old oil comes out

see also getting the box out isn't very easy as the ird and both drive shafts have to come out so a big job indeed

seen some on ebay for around 300-500 quid where they've been taken out of other motors but could easily be a pile of junk and recon ones are around a grand

will just have to consider my options and weigh them up on the facts i have before me

Click to expand...

Yea, its a bit of a dilemma, it's a hell of a job even its a PG box, then you have the seals to change. I guess its like most things as they get older...me included. They just go south eventually.

Hope you suss it either way.

If it's slipping... putting more power though it with the synergy will only make things worse in my opinion. I know there's many on ere who love the extra power... but more pressure on something due to whacking more fool in (under increased acceleration) is going to pick out faults sooner, or cause more wear sooner. That don't mean your problem is caused by the synergy... but I do question the shift pattern difference of the auto on a vehicle where the revs are told to increase much higher than they normally do. the v6 shift pattern is set to deal wioth this as it can rev higher. I question if this is the same for the Td4 as they don't rev as high in standard format.
Have you set the fluid level correctly?
Have you done the resistance checks and checked the barrel connectors are tight together?

http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f9/jatco-automatic-gearbox-69336-5.html

Freelander 1 v6 Jatco Auto Gearbox - Measuring the Solenoid and Sensor Resistances

Longbolt said:

Yea, its a bit of a dilemma, it's a hell of a job even its a PG box, then you have the seals to change. I guess its like most things as they get older...me included. They just go south eventually.

Hope you suss it either way.

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cheers mate

would be a very easy solution if I had spare cash to just go out and buy another motor or repair so that option is out

would have to get my son to help as it is defentely too bigger job for me to do , due to the physical side of lifting it out

I don't like to give up on anything , still going to put it through its mot next month as that will also give me a good indication

my only concern is being without a car, otherwise I would be totally housebound

see a 2006 models are going for around £4 k , as I would want a 5 door this time , to aid the ease of getting the dogs in and out of the car

will do some more reading and go into it in more depth and see where I go

Hippo said:

If it's slipping... putting more power though it with the synergy will only make things worse in my opinion. I know there's many on ere who love the extra power... but more pressure on something due to whacking more fool in (under increased acceleration) is going to pick out faults sooner, or cause more wear sooner. That don't mean your problem is caused by the synergy... but I do question the shift pattern difference of the auto on a vehicle where the revs are told to increase much higher than they normally do. the v6 shift pattern is set to deal wioth this as it can rev higher. I question if this is the same for the Td4 as they don't rev as high in standard format.
Have you set the fluid level correctly?
Have you done the resistance checks and checked the barrel connectors are tight together?

http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f9/jatco-automatic-gearbox-69336-5.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTmdkDuKZ6A

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I think maybe u and i are thinking on the same path , I did have mine set on 3 and reduced it to number 2 and will give it another run

my main reasoning for the synergy is increased mpg and help get rid of the flat spots , however am very mindful they engine is creeping towards the 180,000 level and as u quite rightly say it can cause problems and make them worse if the engine, box etc isn't in good condition

I changed the oil a few months ago, got an infared thermometer and set it better 35-45 degrees and is right on the money


covered around 3000 miles last year yet i replace the oils each and every year regardless due to its high milage

I haven't done any resistance tests yet , there are no dtcs showing on the hawkeye , didn't know if there was a faulty solonoid that it would show up in the hawkeye

did a while back get a eeprom fault, I think that was the code, which points to the actual ecu

i belive u can get the main ecu redone via a testbook, not sure of the facts though ???

however Im going to test it again with the synergy turned down , it has done it with it completely disconnected

it didn't do it in sports mode which has thrown me a bit

am going to start by

retesting it with the synergy on number 2
then with it disconnected again
in and out of sports

will write it all down of my findings

replace the oil again as I have new oem ATF in the shed , see what colour it comes out

understand the gearbox is extremely complicated and out of my remit , however i see u can buy a jatco repair manual ,

will be good to understand it in more depth or until I get out of my depth

found it normally does it from a standstill and going up hill, however I've stopped on a hill and then it doesn't do it

need to work through it step by step and methodically

as always thks for the great help as I know you've got a vast amount of knowledge within this field

Hawkeye would only pick out a faulty solenoid if the computer raised the error code for it, if there is one. The auto's computer would need to sense no reaction or a delayed reaction to a shift command (gear change up/down or in/out). Hence asking it to do something then monitoring further and realising it's not happened. Not sure how clever the monitoring is, or fault detection on the auto's computer.

Flat spots are what they are. They happen. When driving older diesels you put up with them. Newer diesels are different and don't seem to have them. Personally I don't see the point in tuning a diesel. The owner should have purchased a jag or similar instead if they want more speed than the vehicle has from standard. Some won't agree with this but that's life. The engine coolant temp rises faster than the auto fluid, which makes me wonder if some of the heating is done via the oil/coolant heat exchange thing.

Infrared thermometer will measure the outside case temp of the auto. This will be different to the fluid temp inside, as the fluid temp has to rise in order to start the heat case. Hence it's a bit misleading. Some don't agree with the 35 to 45 degrees window to set the oil level but we don't know why Jatco pushed this as the method. Will get round to stripping my spare auto's one day to find out.

Hippo said:

Hawkeye would only pick out a faulty solenoid if the computer raised the error code for it, if there is one. The auto's computer would need to sense no reaction or a delayed reaction to a shift command (gear change up/down or in/out). Hence asking it to do something then monitoring further and realising it's not happened. Not sure how clever the monitoring is, or fault detection on the auto's computer.

Flat spots are what they are. They happen. When driving older diesels you put up with them. Newer diesels are different and don't seem to have them. Personally I don't see the point in tuning a diesel. The owner should have purchased a jag or similar instead if they want more speed than the vehicle has from standard. Some won't agree with this but that's life. The engine coolant temp rises faster than the auto fluid, which makes me wonder if some of the heating is done via the oil/coolant heat exchange thing.

Infrared thermometer will measure the outside case temp of the auto. This will be different to the fluid temp inside, as the fluid temp has to rise in order to start the heat case. Hence it's a bit misleading. Some don't agree with the 35 to 45 degrees window to set the oil level but we don't know why Jatco pushed this as the method. Will get round to stripping my spare auto's one day to find out.

Click to expand...

the infrared thermometer has a red dot and I put that down the filling plug hole to ensure it was at the right temperature

just thought though the hawkeye has got the gearbox temp , just realised like a doughnut as I wonder if that would be a better solution , could use both to see how they compare

I may invest in the jatco repair manual as I think it's only 20 quid and may have some good details in there

also didn't relaise that the jatco is fitted to the Mazda etc as well ,but don't know if the gearing etc is the same

plenty of donor td4 around these days , some selling for 500 as mot failures but have a good working engine , gearbox, ird etc

just thinking of ideas and solutions, lol as I can easily put two motors on my drive if I needed to break one, could then put items on here to get rid of that I didn't need ???

gstuart said:

the infrared thermometer has a red dot and I put that down the filling plug hole to ensure it was at the right temperature

just thought though the hawkeye has got the gearbox temp , just realised like a doughnut as I wonder if that would be a better solution , could use both to see how they compare

I may invest in the jatco repair manual as I think it's only 20 quid and may have some good details in there

also didn't relaise that the jatco is fitted to the Mazda etc as well ,but don't know if the gearing etc is the same

plenty of donor td4 around these days , some selling for 500 as mot failures but have a good working engine , gearbox, ird etc

just thinking of ideas and solutions, lol as I can easily put two motors on my drive if I needed to break one, could then put items on here to get rid of that I didn't need ???

Click to expand...

Infra red thermometers work by detecting thermal radiation. How do you know it's measuring perfectly through the filler hole, and not measuring a bit of the hole itself? They're precise but can give false readings if picking up radiation of adjacent objects.

I don't think the hawkeye coolant temp can be relied on in the auto's menu. I haven't checked it when measuring my auto's fluid temp, but I had problems with the figure displayed before. Search "freelander hawkeye" on you tube to find my video's. one of them displays it.

Hippo said:

Infra red thermometers work by detecting thermal radiation. How do you know it's measuring perfectly through the filler hole, and not measuring a bit of the hole itself? They're precise but can give false readings if picking up radiation of adjacent objects.

I don't think the hawkeye coolant temp can be relied on in the auto's menu. I haven't checked it when measuring my auto's fluid temp, but I had problems with the figure displayed before. Search "freelander hawkeye" on you tube to find my video's. one of them displays it.

Click to expand...

the infra red unit I've got is from my heating days , is fully calibrated and under stand in what ur saying , it's does ambient temperature as well , but no good for this application

used it to test room thermostats as the dot gave me the temp at the room thermostat and also through a different sensor actually built into the unit gave the ambient temp


with the red dot I can hopefully get an accurate reading and moved the dot around inside the hole to variuos places to ensure I could get the best readings possible

will plug the hawkeye in and see in how they compare with regards to temp, good that there is a 10 degree differential

is that when a bypass etc opens up or the oil is at its correct vicosity to flow around the entire oil cooler and system plse

will check out the video , nice the v7 is a lot better at being stable then the earlier models

thks again

will report my findings back for u if it would be of interest to u

may I quickly ask plse

do u guys only use oem ATF oil , as there seems to also be a mixture of what everyone uses
what's the best alternative out there plse

oem oil is £10 per litre

realised I've only got 2 x litres of oem ATF oil and don't want to mix it ,

ie carlube ATF u full synthetic

http://www.ravenol.de/uploads/tx_ravenol/pdf-print/RAVENOL_ATF_JF506E_1.pdf


is there a flushing agent or is that a no no

on reading other posts the slipping can be caused by a band or a solonoid , or am I reading it wrong

sorry to ask old questions

cheers again and thks

sorry

done a search on ebay and seen there are jatco full service and workshop manuals and think it may be a good idea to get one, both books are £70 quid

just looking for the solonoid ohms readings link, found an American link for the manuals but dam thing won't download , will try on my laptop to see if it works, one says it's free but then asks for ur cc details which I won't do

has anyone else got one of the books plse and if so did u find them very useful

determined to solve this and got all the time in the world and can then post all my results on here to help others

thks

The Mad Hat Man said:

Ashcroft Transmissions

Click to expand...

thks mate

[email protected]

Not sure it helps much, but might be worth a call.

Its easy to bugger up a jatco box. I have found David very helpfull.

The Mad Hat Man said:

[email protected]

Not sure it helps much, but might be worth a call.

Its easy to bugger up a jatco box. I have found David very helpfull.

Click to expand...

cheers , have sent him an email

appreciate it and not going to do anything further than an oil change due to the complexity of these boxes

will wait to see what he says

thks again

gstuart said:

...with the red dot I can hopefully get an accurate reading and moved the dot around inside the hole to variuos places to ensure I could get the best readings possible...

Click to expand...

FFS noooooooo.

Read the post above. They measure radiation of heat. Whilst this is ok in an open space, it's not going to work well through a 12mm approx diameter hole. The type of device we use is a very sensitive thermometer like below. This has a long enough spike to reach into the auto, but doesn't reach the fluid which is a shame. It is sensitive enough to be able to measure the air temperature at the end of the probe, which is the best we can do other than break into the auto itself. It came from maplin. Not sure if they still sell them.

To answer some of the other questions...
We don't know wht the level is done at 35 to 45 degrees. We don't know if the temp opens something or what happens. I will find out when I chop up my spare.
New fluid has cleaner in it. The flushing agents also need to be washed out after use. Personally I would never bother with them.
The ohm's value limits are in the video I posted. They're also in the text below the video.
The colour of the fluid which comes out is a good indicator of wear on the bands if it's brown (assuming it's not fbrown to start with).
There are different fluids on the market available.
180k miles is high for our auto's. They seem to start playing up at around 100k on average, but we have seem many that pass this distance with ease.
I've had an auto fail so I know what it feels like. I've also had far too many tell me they haven't done the level check properly, and feked their auto themselves.


PB231883 Q4ro73Z

Hippo said:

FFS noooooooo.

Read the post above. They measure radiation of heat. Whilst this is ok in an open space, it's not going to work well through a 12mm approx diameter hole. The type of device we use is a very sensitive thermometer like below. This has a long enough spike to reach into the auto, but doesn't reach the fluid which is a shame. It is sensitive enough to be able to measure the air temperature at the end of the probe, which is the best we can do other than break into the auto itself. It came from maplin. Not sure if they still sell them.

To answer some of the other questions...
We don't know wht the level is done at 35 to 45 degrees. We don't know if the temp opens something or what happens. I will find out when I chop up my spare.
New fluid has cleaner in it. The flushing agents also need to be washed out after use. Personally I would never bother with them.
The ohm's value limits are in the video I posted. They're also in the text below the video.
The colour of the fluid which comes out is a good indicator of wear on the bands if it's brown (assuming it's not fbrown to start with).
There are different fluids on the market available.
180k miles is high for our auto's. They seem to start playing up at around 100k on average, but we have seem many that pass this distance with ease.
I've had an auto fail so I know what it feels like. I've also had far too many tell me they haven't done the level check properly, and feked their auto themselves.

Click to expand...

cheers buddy

I will go and sit on the naughty step again, lol

i think u will throw something at me for this, also got a calibrated thermometer with a long probe on the end , think it's about 4-6 inches that I completely forgot about , oopppss ,

maybe this is where I've gone wrong with regards to taking the temps

remember when we chatted before with regards to ur box and the garage etc so know you've got a considerable amount of knowledge

am going to actually buy the jatco service books next week as for the low cost will be a good investment

will also not worry about any flushing agents etc

just didn't know with regards to the atf fluid if the oem was the rolls Royce of fluids out there or others are superior to the oem ones

will go into this as much depth as my brain will allow me, so that shouldn't be much , lol

maybe the service manuals may shed light on why the box has to be done at them certain temperatures , something like a thermosta that possibly opens and allows oil into the intercooler, ???

going to be very interesting when u open a box, as I imagine u are the sort of guy who enjoys seeing how things tick

cheers again and will check u video out

will of course post my findings back here for u and others to see what i done and how i fingers crossed resolved the issue

thks again

ps plugged the hawkeye in this morning , noted in the gearbox section it displays the gearbox and engine temperature

then if u scroll further also says atf fluid temp normal

gstuart said:

cheers buddy

I will go and sit on the naughty step again, lol

i think u will throw something at me for this, also got a calibrated thermometer with a long probe on the end , think it's about 4-6 inches that I completely forgot about , oopppss , ...

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I've had me egg sandwidge now so I've calmed down.

Use the long probe one instead. I don't think or know for sure if this will have caused any issues. Probably not. It's just we don't know any betterer, or why jatco states certain temps. I did talk to them by email but only got conformation of the method we use. There are other fluids available. I personally only use the LR LRN402 stuff but others will be along with the other stuff available. Reason why I use it is after having an auto replaced at £2200 the cost difference doesn't bother me for the fluid. I have something like 20L. Texaco sell it like this for around £80 if I remember correctly. Another auto failure would be game over for my hippo.