Ice/Snow Freelander Advice

Removing the props is easy, I drove 1 side of the car onto blocks to give more room, then loosed the bolts to the diff & IRD that I could get easy access to, then pushed the car along the blocks a bit to turn the others round into view. With those bolts removed there's just 4 holding the VCU support bearings. Off and on in an hour - probably 30 mins 2nd time.

I've never removed the VCU from the props - I believe its 1 bolt at either end sort of tucked inside the UJ. First time they're removed that can be a bitch, but once again if it needs to be done again, probably a lot easier.

Having read loads of threads on here about fuel economy - the autos I'd say use at least 20% more fuel - I was surprise at how much more fuel they use. I'd imagine they wouldn't be that bad on the long motorway runs, but around town and up those mountains they will consume a lot more. They'll presumably be a lot more comfortable going up the mountains, but less so coming down. They appear pretty reliable, not to many reported problems.

I don't agree with most on the vcu comments on ere. We have debated reasons for them failing and the issue of them being a concern on a slippery surface is dependent on knowledge of how they work. (it's a rule on ere yer can't mention vcu's without an argument). A 4x4 on engine breaking going down hill with all wheels being breaked by the engine has potentially 4 wheels with a chance of grip. A 2 wheel vehicle only has chance of 2. Therefore a 4wd is betterer than a 2wd in those conditions. If the rear wheels slip on a Freelander 1 then the vcu will will sense the difference in prop shaft speed increase (front to rear) and become stiffer than normal. they do have a stiffness in standard form which is why they resist the one wheel up test and bench test. If the front wheels are turning and the rears don't, then the traction controls will get involved at the same time and an equalibriam effect of the vcu pushing power to the rear wheels whilst the traction control tries to brake slipping/spinning wheels will take place. It takes a while to describe this in detail but the result is a Freelander 1 which tries to gain control of it's wheel speed (x4) and stop spinning/sliding wheels on ice.

Rule of thumb on snow/ice is not to drive on it unless you need to. Downhill is more dangerous as the chance to loose directional stability is greater. ABS primarily is designed to regain directional stability, as opposed to make breaking betterer, although it does have a positive effect on the latter. Brake fade is an issue on long stretches if abs traction control are working. The OP doesn't want to use hdc. hdc will warm up the brakes quicker and fade out and switch off if the brakes get too hot.

The LR experience centre at Rockingham castle has a road next to it (A6003) which has a long steep bit. The Freelander 2 goes up/down it betterer than other vehicles they have due to it being lighter. Parts of the year they never drive it in the heavier vehicles. There are times when they won't drive it at all. These choices are down to their experience of the vehicles. that's not saying the Freelander 2 is betterer than the rest. It's simply a case it's betterer in these conditions.

downhill with hdc correcting speed: Freelander 1 v6 Hill Descent Control Demo Down Hill On Snow

traction control helping it uphill: Freelander 1 v6 Electronic Traction Control Demo Up Hill On Snow And Ice

vcu removal: http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f69/freelander-1-vcu-bearing-replacement-how-guide-156068.html

I had no problems just using the abs to go down snow and ice covered roads...it worked a treat.....Also tried the same roads with 3 amigos on the dash....well I was bouncing of kerbs while trying my best to feather the brake...[emoji5]

I get the point with the transmission wind up on icy/snowy roads as grumpygel mentions too...I too belive the scuffing of the wheel could induce a skid....it would be similar to pulling the handbrake while going round a corner. And depending where the ice is on the road, this could mean a front wheel skipping instead and causing understeer.

I noticed this more with my old stiff vcu when trying to throw the hippo round a left hand corner...half way round the transmission would tighten up then the whole car would jump to the right slightly as the the wheels skipped and the tightness on the transmission released.[emoji16]


And Finally Auto is a must in my opinion..they do guzzle more fuel but they are so much easier to drive.

Don't understand the reluctance to use HDC, you can switch it off and on when needed. Surely it is a must that VCU has to be working properly in OP's situation. Auto can be driven as manual.
NO 4x4 will perform with guaranteed predictability and many people have become seriously unstuck by thinking they will.
My advice, buy a FL with ALL off road functions working and then stay at home when it's really bad.

clarkkent said:

Don't understand the reluctance to use HDC, you can switch it off and on when needed. Surely it is a must that VCU has to be working properly in OP's situation. Auto can be driven as manual.
NO 4x4 will perform with guaranteed predictability and many people have become seriously unstuck by thinking they will.
My advice, buy a FL with ALL off road functions working and then stay at home when it's really bad.

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HDC is brilliant. I can't see a reason not to use it either. We don't have to potter along at the base target speed anyway. If the throttle is applied, the HDC won't be activated until the new high speed is reached. If there is a tricky bit where slower speeds are needed, simply easing off the throttle activities HDC giving instant controlled braking.
The VCU system works well on slippery surfaces. It gives some slip so wheels are less likely to skid but still allows drive when needed. It's a simple and very effective way of delivering drive in all conditions.

On really slippery, steep surfaces, I'd rather be in my old V6 Freelander over my Discovery. The Discovery 3 is awesome but it's weight is against it in those conditions.

Dont worry about it.

Mine is a manual TD4 and copes fine. Granted not the Alps, but its steep, twisty switch-back roads everywhere round here and the Freelander does fine. In heavy snow I have found myself pushing a bow-wave of powder in front of me on unplowed roads to the point where I have to push it over to the verge, back away from the mound and carry on each time it builds up too high. On ice it works fine with just the ABS if needed. No point in HDC generally, never really needed it.
As for VCU life I put a replacement on from Bells a few years back and its still fine, and that includes very regularly towing close to two tons up and down the switchback roads.

The right tyres are more important than too many electronic bells and whistles. Every single winter here sees plenty of "better" 4x4`s going nowhere because they are on summer road-spec low profile tyres. In fact I would rather be in my Ford Escort on winter tyres than a 4x4 on summer tyres.

My concern about a wheel scuffing is genuine - I to would feel more confident decending a road that is likely to be icy in a Freelander than a 'big' Disco, Defender or any other make.

I've never used HDC to control an icy slope, but I'm sure you guys that rave over it are right. A couple of things though.

1) HDC only operates in 1st gear - so you could turn it on it at the top of a 1,000m decent and its ignored until you get to the really trickey bits when 1st is engaged.
2) The speed that HDC tries to maintain, may be fine for the controlled decent on a reasonable surface, but might be to high for sheet ice on a bend.
3) What Hippo says about it overheating is true, I was chatting to a bloke who was playing in his D2 in the sand dunes of Western Australia using HDC to come down - it overheated and cut out leaving him to plummet to the bottom. So its only of use over small sections.

Comparing the VCU to a Haldex AWD system - once again, I'd rather be descending with a VCU rather than Haldex. With the Haldex in Lock - it is just like diff lock in a permanent 4WD - so not an option - it doesn't have the slip of a VCU. Running it in auto will be a bit like HDC, its going to be cutting in and out and Haldexes suffer the same overheating & cutout issues.

If the road conditions are looking bad and you want to stop for a bit, or there is traffic build up, don't turn the engine off. I did that in my D1. The result was that the ABS reset itself and only enables itself after you reach a a certain speed - I never got back up to that speed so the ABS never activated itself again. It sounds ridiculous - but the road conditions were that bad. In hindsight maybe I should have taken a gamble and gone 'fast' to enable it but as soon as the car started to move it lost traction - its a scarey situation. My '99 Freelander is the same, later cars may not need this minimum activation speed.

Doesn't hdc only work in 1st and reverse? Switch it on and leave it on using the gears or is that just the newer ones? Sounds like snow/winter tires is the answer here.

goonarmy said:

Doesn't hdc only work in 1st and reverse? Switch it on and leave it on using the gears or is that just the newer ones? Sounds like snow/winter tires is the answer here.

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Yes 1st and reverse.

Interesting discussion, thanks for your input

With regards to HDC, I'm not "against" using it, quite the opposite. The slope outside our chalet is steep, and once the snow plough has been there is a patchy, super slippery and icy surface left behind where I think HDC will provide the perfect safety net. I usually put the Defender in low range difflock here, take my feet off and let it "correct" itself on the way down.

It cannot be relied up during everyday driving however, as invariably you will find yourself on a low grip section of road where you don't have the time to slow down and stop, engage HDC and then drive off. The car has to have the built in ability to be able to cope with these conditions.

What Hippo has said about the 4 wheels vs 2 wheels giving better chance of grip is exactly what I experienced with the Defender in difflock. Descending a slope you can feel one or two wheels slip with only a slight increase in speed, then a judder as those wheels regained traction and you slow down again, all completely controlled. This is what worries me about the X-Trail in that on over-run/ABS engagement, it disengages the 4-wheel lock.

Obviously winter tyres are not up for debate, and on that subject does anyone run 215/70/16's? I think the slight larger rolling radius should help with slightly slower wheel speeds and therefore a bit more traction. What are your thoughts on this?

Oh, and chains? Putting 6 or 8mm chains on the front wheels is potentially going to mess with the front to rear wheel speed ratio, so where would you fit chains on a Freelander?

Thanks again for your input chaps, interesting to hear all your thoughts

SnowTrippin said:

This is what worries me about the X-Trail in that on over-run/ABS engagement, it disengages the 4-wheel lock.

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it doesnt . It is a very sophisticated system.

SnowTrippin said:

Interesting discussion, thanks for your input

With regards to HDC, I'm not "against" using it, quite the opposite. The slope outside our chalet is steep, and once the snow plough has been there is a patchy, super slippery and icy surface left behind where I think HDC will provide the perfect safety net. I usually put the Defender in low range difflock here, take my feet off and let it "correct" itself on the way down.

It cannot be relied up during everyday driving however, as invariably you will find yourself on a low grip section of road where you don't have the time to slow down and stop, engage HDC and then drive off. The car has to have the built in ability to be able to cope with these conditions.

What Hippo has said about the 4 wheels vs 2 wheels giving better chance of grip is exactly what I experienced with the Defender in difflock. Descending a slope you can feel one or two wheels slip with only a slight increase in speed, then a judder as those wheels regained traction and you slow down again, all completely controlled. This is what worries me about the X-Trail in that on over-run/ABS engagement, it disengages the 4-wheel lock.

Obviously winter tyres are not up for debate, and on that subject does anyone run 215/70/16's? I think the slight larger rolling radius should help with slightly slower wheel speeds and therefore a bit more traction. What are your thoughts on this?

Oh, and chains? Putting 6 or 8mm chains on the front wheels is potentially going to mess with the front to rear wheel speed ratio, so where would you fit chains on a Freelander?

Thanks again for your input chaps, interesting to hear all your thoughts

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Not sure about the fl but I remember that other LR' s handbooks say use one pair of chains, on the back iirc but That's not gospel. Also what do the locals drive?

goonarmy said:

Not sure about the fl but I remember that other LR' s handbooks say use one pair of chains, on the back iirc but That's not gospel. Also what do the locals drive?

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Defender 90's, 110's and old skool Fiat Panda 4x4's!!

Snow chain fitting information from Land Rover

L 538 - EVOQUE 2012-- Snow chains on front wheels

L 449 - RANGE ROVER SPORT 2013-- Snow chains on rear wheels
L 320 - RANGE ROVER SPORT 2005-2013 Snow chains on front wheels

L 405 - RANGE ROVER 2013-- Snow chains on rear wheels
L 322 - RANGE ROVER 2002-2012 Snow chains on rear wheels

L 319 - DISCOVERY 4 2010-- Snow chains on front wheels
L 319 - DISCOVERY 3 2003 - 2010 Snow chains on front wheels

L 359 - FREELANDER 2 2006-- Snow chains on front wheels

L316 - DEFENDER 1990-- Snow chains on front or rear wheels

SnowTrippin said:

old skool Fiat Panda 4x4's!!

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I was gunna suggest a Suzuki Jimny - light basic 4WD with ABS - but you wouldn't want to do the UK-France drive in that and I'd probably get thrown off the forum!

GrumpyGel said:

I was gunna suggest a Suzuki Jimny - light basic 4WD with ABS - but you wouldn't want to do the UK-France drive in that and I'd probably get thrown off the forum!

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Ha, I'd love a Jimny! Did the Mongolia rally in an old Vitara so have a soft spot for old Suzuki 4x4's

No this one has to be more comfortable and fuel efficient than the Defender, with a 70km round trip to the cash and carry once every 10 days, and 2 40km round trips twice a week to the supermarket

So, for my sins (I hope not!) I just bought this little beauty!







2004, 87k with what looks to be a full, no expense spared LR service history. Clutch, slave cylinder and flywheel replaced 15,000 miles ago, rear diff mounts done, serviced on the button every year etc. Drives perfectly, only niggle which was noted on the last MOT is a sloppy track rod end so will be replacing that next week.

Will also be ordering a set of 16" steel wheels with 215/70/16 Pirelli Scorpion Winter XL's for the winter, so other than that what else should I look to spend some money on!?

The boost hose to the left of the plastic pipe at the front of the engine is pretty soft, so is a silicon hose kit worth purchasing?

Anything else worth doing to eek out every last MPG?

Nice looking motor She should perform well for you - fingers crossed.

If I were you I'd get a 32mm socket and rig yourself up a bar and weight that you can use for a 1 wheel up test. Do a test now just for peace of mind that the VCU is OK. Then you can do the test again a bit before your shift down to France just to make sure its all still OK. If you try and do the test with the same rig in similar temp and after similar use (eg first thing in the morning or after a 5 miles drive) you'll have as near as possible exact same conditions to go by your benchmark results. Sounds like a bit of agro, but its an easy & quick test.

Over 5 years my L Series has been perfectly reliable without having to do anything but oil and filter changes - a combination of "leave it if it aint broke", lazyness and being tight has kept it in great condition However, if you have a hose your worried about, you'll have to make a call on it. I don't think I've heard any bad reports on here about the silicon hose kits, others may confirm this or provide words of warning.

Quite a lot of people have added tuning boxes to their cars on here - I'm sure there would have been TD4 owners doing this. Some report no change but others report great improvements in performance and/or economy. Personally I'm not convinced. I'm sure if many of these had installed a 'placebo' tuning box, they would still have been reporting improvements! My tag name's not GrumpyGel for no reason. I'm sure for better fuel economy improvements you'd do better sticking to 70 instead of 80 or 60 instead of 70. I spent 20 years piling the UK and European motorways at 80MPH and the last 12 driving to a 60MPH limit here with coppers that will nick you for doing 63 - it takes some time, but you adapt and get used to the slower speeds.

Thanks

I'll sort a test rig out for the VCU and take some readings. I don't suppose there is any standardised testing procedure with comparable results?

I think I'll replace the hoses just for peace of mind. Going to remove the EGR valve so will clean out the intercooler while I'm in there too!

On the subject of tuning boxes, are there any recommendations here? I had my Defender remapped by Mike at Dyna Chip and the difference was indeed night and day, so I am definitely a believer!

yes - wheel up test