TD5, harsh at around 3000rpm

I recently bought a 2001 TD5 disco. The car drives very nicely, in particular, the bottom end torque is fantastic.

However, I'm suprised how harsh the engine is once the revs get to around 2600rpm and above. The worst is around 3000, at which speed it does sound quite objectionable. It seems to be worse once the engine is hot.

At low speed, and A roads the car is great, but at motorways speeds its really spoiled by this harshness, which is quite audible. In fact we've a 1997 300Tdi, which is noticeably smoother at 70mph, than is this Td5. Oil consumption is pretty good, and as I say its really smooth, lower down. Has anyone else encountered roughness, at these engine speeds?

Many thanks

PS Cars got full service history, and a big wedge of receipts etc. So (in theory) should have been properly cared for.

Had the same sort of problem then i de catt'd it and was a different machine,

brainboy81 said:

Had the same sort of problem then i de catt'd it and was a different machine,

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Thanks for the reply, however this one does not appear to have a cat fitted, all I can see in the downpipe is a flexi-joint, and thats it.

However, been doing some more digging. You can feel said vibration through the clutch pedal. Looking thro the service history its had a "2nd hand" dual mass flywheel fitted, about 18 months ago, along with new clutch, starter etc.

There's a good landy specialists a few miles from me, I'm going to get an opinion off them. Bit of a mauling job, but flywheel replacement wouldn't be the end of the world.

landy.man said:

Thanks for the reply, however this one does not appear to have a cat fitted, all I can see in the downpipe is a flexi-joint, and thats it.

However, been doing some more digging. You can feel said vibration through the clutch pedal. Looking thro the service history its had a "2nd hand" dual mass flywheel fitted, about 18 months ago, along with new clutch, starter etc.

There's a good landy specialists a few miles from me, I'm going to get an opinion off them. Bit of a mauling job, but flywheel replacement wouldn't be the end of the world.

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The cat is not in the down pipe its just after it turns the bend under the truck round tube abut 18 inches long and abour twice as thick as th erest of the exhaust.

brainboy81 said:

The cat is not in the down pipe its just after it turns the bend under the truck round tube abut 18 inches long and abour twice as thick as th erest of the exhaust.

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I didn't explain myself properly. The only thing in the whole front section, which isn't plain pipe, is the flexi joint. No cats, no nothing.

But won't an early one like this (2001) be non cat? I thought they were only fitted later on, to meet tougher emissions standards.

Saying that, an incorrectly fitted or damaged exhaust could cause vibration.

Yeh a 2001 will have no cat

I have the same problem... TD5 2004. Its a rough as a bears bum above 2500 rpm... other than that it runs and pulls fine. In fact the engine is brand new from Landrover - due to a blown head gasket. I wonder if water/steam through the exhaust will have messed up the cat?

If you find a solution - let me know!!

Good luck -

John

I changed all the oils yesterday (diffs, gearbox, and transfer box) - what a mess! The car has a full service history but I dont think the transmission fluids have been changed at all... anyway... it runs a lot quieter but the harshness is still evident at about 2500 rpm to 3000 rpm. I have ordered a decat down pipe and will see if that improves the situation!

I think I will have to make this vehicle a "hobby" rather than a means of transport - I am spending more time with it than my wife!

Mines rough as bollocks too at 2500, got a list to through of potential probs, cleaned oil outta ecu, gonna blank egr next,a shot airflow meter will cause roughness too , why no else got u aint got a cat , its in ya 2nd post, mine had vibration at 70mph wen clutched was changed it went, and the old flywheel had 30mm play, also changed rear prop donut while under there

LONEWOLF said:

Mines rough as bollocks too at 2500, got a list to through of potential probs, cleaned oil outta ecu, gonna blank egr next,a shot airflow meter will cause roughness too , why no else got u aint got a cat , its in ya 2nd post, mine had vibration at 70mph wen clutched was changed it went, and the old flywheel had 30mm play, also changed rear prop donut while under there

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Did a bit more digging, local Landy place didn't think there was anything much wrong per se. Rear propshaft needs a new donut joint, which is causing a bit of vibration at motorway speed.

This doesn't alter the fact that I bought a Td5 in the expectation it would be a lot more refined on the motorway than is a 300Tdi. The car is very nice at lower speeds, and has great low-down torque, for towing. I'm disappointed by this lack of refinement at relatively low engine revs though.

So I think I might sell it on, and stick with the mechanical simplicity of a 300Tdi, although it might take me a while to find one which isn't a rot-box ;-)

Thanks for all the replies though

Solved the problem with a new set of engine mounts...... proper jobs from landrover - it is now quiet and refined - as it should be at motorway speeds....

All the other jobs helped but the harshness above 2500 rpm was down to worn engine mounts.

johndenney said:

Solved the problem with a new set of engine mounts...... proper jobs from landrover - it is now quiet and refined - as it should be at motorway speeds....

All the other jobs helped but the harshness above 2500 rpm was down to worn engine mounts.

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Thats very interesting. On my car the roughness does get better and worse, according to engine speed. 3200 rpm is the worst, although I don't really use that fast a speed, in top gear. There's a patch around 2600-2700 which conincides with about 65-70 mph. Around 2900 is about the best, which is around 75mph in top.

Does any of this sound like your car? If so I might try a set of mounts, as I'm pretty much at the point of selling the car on, to be honest.

I too was on the verge of getting rid - but I had spent too much time and money on it to give up! Anyway it really is very acceptable now with the new engine and gearbox mounts.. mine has done 116,000 miles and the rubber was shot... Engine mounts made the biggest difference of all the jobs I have done. It was well worth the time and trouble. I have just had it re-mapped by Dynachip and took it for a blast down the motorway - hit 90 without any drama and was still quite smooth and comfortable. Normal motorway speeds are relaxed and enjoyable. Everything is relative and it is a dog compared to a 7 series BMW I had but still I am happy with it now.

I still think they should have spent a lot more time designing and testing the damn things!!!!

John

Just crawled under the car. Drivers side engine mount is completely collapsed (rubber touching small hole at bottom), passenger side has clearance, but well less than the 10mm++ which would be correct. So I might be onto something, thanks very much for the info.

johndenney said:

I still think they should have spent a lot more time designing and testing the damn things!!!!

John

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A friend of mine was a development engineer on Project Tempest(Discovery 2). He said they had a lot of NVH (noise vibration harshness) problems with the diesel engine, one of the worst of which was a resonance mode in the whole drive train, which occured at around 3000revs, from memory. The problem really was the bellhousing flexing, apparently it was so bad that there was serious risk of stress cracks appearing in the casting. Sadly the Rover beancounters wouldn't let them engineer a strengthened version, so they solved the problem using a harmonic damper on the back of the transfer box, which basically oscillates in anti-phase, at the frequency of disturbance.

Oh and he mentioned there was a exhaust resonance a bit lower down, between 2500 and 3000 which was solved by doing some change to the downpipe. This possibly explains peoples success when removing the cat. Its perhaps not actually the removal of the cat, but more likely the fitment of a different downpipe.

Still tempted the flog the bugger tho, somehow a 300Tdi is a lot less fuss...even with the welding ;-)

Regards

Bill

Fitted new engine mountings at the weekend, genuine landrover parts.

It has improved the car but its still not wonderful, on the motorway. God knows what that particular engine would be like in a Defender.

So maybe its shagged, or maybe its just an example of Rovers "lucky dip" quality.

Hi Bill, Sorry to hear that the new mounts did not make much improvement! What a pain..... I have a feeling that the TD5 engine is fundamentally unbalanced - I guess 5 cylinders does not help.

One other small thing... I noticed that the acoustic cover on the engine was missing the drivers side retaining bolt and appeared to be flapping about and resonating at motorway speeds. After bolting it down properly it runs a little quieter. There seem to be a number of things that make the engine harsh and noisy - I have just worked my way through all of them and it is quite acceptable now, although to be honest, if I had not spent so much money and time on it I would sell it and get a Landcruiser.

Good luck with it and if all else fails turn up the radio.

John

johndenney said:

Hi Bill, Sorry to hear that the new mounts did not make much improvement! What a pain..... I have a feeling that the TD5 engine is fundamentally unbalanced - I guess 5 cylinders does not help.

One other small thing... I noticed that the acoustic cover on the engine was missing the drivers side retaining bolt and appeared to be flapping about and resonating at motorway speeds. After bolting it down properly it runs a little quieter. There seem to be a number of things that make the engine harsh and noisy - I have just worked my way through all of them and it is quite acceptable now, although to be honest, if I had not spent so much money and time on it I would sell it and get a Landcruiser.

Good luck with it and if all else fails turn up the radio.

John

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The TD5 is quite a complex vehicle really, (some of it unnecesarry IMHO) When I was doing these mounts I thought it was a bit of a pig to work on too, also I didn't like the look of all the slowly rusting hydraulic pipes everywhere. I can see one of these cars being a bit of a money pit, when they get older.

All this I could tolerate if the car was something special, but it just isn't, so therefore I'm going to get rid, since at the moment I'd just about get my money back.

Thanks for the support though.

Bill

landy.man said:

Fitted new engine mountings at the weekend, genuine landrover parts.

It has improved the car but its still not wonderful, on the motorway. God knows what that particular engine would be like in a Defender.

So maybe its shagged, or maybe its just an example of Rovers "lucky dip" quality.

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Why would the TD5 be any different in a Defender? Same engine, same mounts, less lard, more room to work on it, and way more street cred . Any engine will have a sweet spot and some not so sweet ones. Best engine I ever had was in my old XJ12 Jaguar (when it was running properly that is). Smooth as a sewing machine and you really could balance a 50p on the top of the engine and rev it without the coin falling.

Shifty1962 said:

Why would the TD5 be any different in a Defender? .... way more street cred

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I meant from a refinement point of view, not to work on.

Not so sure about your street cred when your stuck in a deep ford cos yer ECU got full of water ;-)

landy.man said:

I meant from a refinement point of view, not to work on.

Not so sure about your street cred when your stuck in a deep ford cos yer ECU got full of water ;-)

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Has not happened yet. ECU has a watertight seal and the connectors are reasonably water proof especially if you spray them with silicone. The under seat box is not exactly a sieve either. Would not want to park overnight in deep water but for wading its just fine unless its too deep for the air intake as I dont have a snorkel. Its all down to technique or taking another route.