Retarded or advanced...or neither

Good evening folks,

I have a 1998 110 300dti. 140,000 on the clock,

I've just changed the timing belt and now I have blue smoke from the exhaust. There's a little black puff to start and then at idle speeds it's fine, but as I rev the engine the blue smoke starts.

After driving for a few mins the smoke does stop, when it's all nice and hot.

I did feel that after changing the belt, the engine was a bit sluggish and underpowered. But I find those before and after comparisons quite hard to make

I've read quite a bit about people having problems after changing the belts and needing to advance or retard the pump timing. I understand how to do it (rotating the fuel pump sprocket after losening the three bolts) but an quite scared of having a go unless I'm sure I'm doing the right thing.

Hopefull here's a link of starting when it's cold. Please ignore the pile of rubbish and old Christmas tree in the background...

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsiQqpg104w"]300tdi exhaust - YouTube[/nomedia]

So my questions are...in no particular order

1. Is my asumption about the timing fault correct?
2. If so, is it retarded or advanced?
3. As the smoke disappears when it's hot, could the blue smoke just be being burnt off in the hot exhaust pipe etc?
4. Is there anything else I could check?

My instinct is that's it is timing as this is the only thing I've altered.

Your comments and advice would be welcomed.

Cheers

Matt

Not 100% but I thought blue smoke was piston rings??

Oil getting into fuel isnt it ?

blue is usually oil, rings, valve seals.From the little i know blue = fooked

if it was imediate after change the recheck timing ,cam is important to and can be hard to set if looking from above needs to be straight on or with mirror ,then pump timing ,dont forget to turn engine over twice and recheck tension and position when sure put pin in pump undo 3 x bolts and hold injection pump nut 7/8 or 22mm spanner hard clockwise against pin then retighten this slightly advances it ,never advance pump until you know cam is right ,you can repeat with drill bits getting smaller diameter to advance further ,if you go too far knock will appear just set back till knock becomes less distinctive this is ideal timing position clockwise looking at pump from front is advance anti clockwise retard ,with cam set before mark rather than after if exact position cant be obtained

Thanks for the reply.

Stupid question No.1: If I went back to first principles and put a locking pin in the flywheel to get No1 piston at TDC, and found that the cam shaft and/or the pump were out of line with their corresponding marks, can I remove the timing belt, move either or both sprockets to the correct marks and then refit the belt?

not only can you but you should do ,then go through tigthtening procedure turn engine over twice and recheck

James when you say knock!!
Does that mean the pump is advanced??

could also mean a lot of other things depending on the knock.

big end

valves (more of a rattle)

.....

sible88 said:

James when you say knock!!
Does that mean the pump is advanced??

Click to expand...

injection begins before tdc is reached to give time for full burn of fuel advancing too far means that the burn will have progressed to a point when it trys to push piston down before tdc is reached giving knock instead of reaching this point perfectly at tdc where energy can push piston down ,too late injection (retarded) means piston has passed tdc and is going down before energy from burn can effect it loosing some of the effectiveness from burn ,as burn time is fixed it time length and piston speed is variable timing is advanced in pump as revs increase to allow as much of burn to be used ,so you want to set pump for optimum to run just before dlesel knock ,v8 petrols in p38 use knock sensors on block to keep ignition timing as good as possible

jamesmartin said:

injection begins before tdc is reached to give time for full burn of fuel advancing too far means that the burn will have progressed to a point when it trys to push piston down before tdc is reached giving knock instead of reaching this point perfectly at tdc where energy can push piston down ,too late injection (retarded) means piston has passed tdc and is going down before energy from burn can effect it loosing some of the effectiveness from burn ,as burn time is fixed it time length and piston speed is variable timing is advanced in pump as revs increase to allow as much of burn to be used ,so you want to set pump for optimum to run just before dlesel knock ,v8 petrols in p38 use knock sensors on block to keep ignition timing as good as possible

Click to expand...

Very good explanation thank you.

Well ive been meaning to do this for ages, so actually got of my arse and advanced it a tadge, was totally spot on before at crank and inj pump, now hardly any smoke at all when started, i reckon i advanced it at most 2mm measured at the edge of the inj pump sprocket.
One more job of the long list!


Lynall

Lynall,

DId you notice any change in the perfomance after altering the timing?

Matt

Er no none at all!
I cant see if helping with the power at all on a std engine.
I remember years ago advancing the pump timing on a late 300 auto to help with the poor starting, no power difference again but started loads better.


Lynall

Looking at your video, your timing is a little retarded - I had the problem earlier this year. There is no need to worry about the whitish / blue smoke, it is just a symptom of your timing being slightly out and the fuel not burning correctly. You need to advance the timing but don't advance it too far as James has said, because it'll sound horrible and it won't do your engine any good. You will also find that performance decreases. The best method takes a little patience but it can give superb results. Start off by advancing the timing as far as it will go on the pump sprocket and then fire her up. Deck the pedal or take it for a short drive. If it sounds like a knackered, clattery sewing machine, you know you have diesel knock and the timing is too far advanced. The next step is to adjust it back ever so slightly (the term nats cock is often used - and it really can be less than 1mm of adjustment). Fire it up, take it for a drive again and see how it sounds. Once you have adjusted it back far enough that the sharp diesel knock is no longer audible, tighten everything up and take it for a good drive. These engines should sound a little harsh when they are spot on but not at all knocky. You should also find that performance is improved. These engines really do go well when they're setup right and timing is critical.

-Tom

Can you put a pic up of what you adjust on the pump?
Or a very good explanation lol

This is a photo taken from the 200tdi timing belt change guide on LR4X4. The topic can be found here - Defender 200TDI timing belt change - LR4x4 - The Land Rover Forum, all photo credits go to Les / White 90 from LR4X4.



In order to adjust or "fine tune" your fuel injection timing, you can access the injection pump timing sprocket without having to remove the timing case. If you look at the front of your timing case, there should be a small circular inspection cover secured with three bolts. Remove the three bolts, pull the cover away (it might be held on with a silicone gasket or similar) and then you will be able to see the retainer plate over the centre of the injection pump sprocket (as pictured above) that locks the injection pump sprocket to the injection pump drive flange. The large nut in the centre is part of the main shaft through the injection pump. Now, you need to take a good look at your crank pulley and rotate the engine clockwise until you see a line scribed into the outer edge of the pulley labelled TDC (Top Dead Centre). The TDC mark on the crank pulley should align with a raised area of the timing cover at about 10 - 11 O'Clock. Once you have TDC roughly aligned, clamber under your vehicle and take a look (with a torch) at the alignment of the TDC notch in the fly wheel. This should be clearly visible through a hole in the flywheel housing on the underside of your engine (between the block and the bell housing) You might find that there is a wading plug in place, if so remove it. Have a friend rotate the engine clockwise very slowly until the notch in the flywheel is perfectly aligned with the wading plug hole - you have now set TDC. Lock the flywheel in place if you have a timing pin. Now, in order to adjust the fuel injection timing, slacken the three bolts on the injection pump retainer plate just enough to allow the retainer plate to rotate - DO NOT remove them or the entire sprocket will come away from the injection pump drive flange and then you will have to take the timing cover off. You will notice in the picture above that a 9mm drill bit will slot through a hole in the retainer plate, pass through the sprocket and into a hole in your injection pump when injection timing is set correctly (at least to factory standards) at TDC. If a 9mm drill bit does not pass directly through the hole and lock the retainer plate and sprocket, your injection pump timing is set either too advance or too retarded. Use a 17/19mm socket on the centre nut and rotate the pump clockwise to advance the timing, or anti-clockwise to retard the timing until the 9mm drill bit passes though the holes and locks the timing. Now, rotate the centre bolt very slightly clockwise, tighten up the three retainer plate bolts, remove any timing pins and start it up. How does it perform?

-Tom

hey - that was, in fact, a very good explanation.

Well I finally got round to sorting it and it has made a great difference. The timing was out but not by much, but it was enough!

Now no blue smoke, and it drives noticably better.

My Haynes manual says that a 9.5mm bit will do but I couldn't get it to fit. So like Tom says, I used a 9mm bit and it worked fine.

I made a locking tool by tapping out a 1/4" brass fitting with an 8mm tap. And then ground the tip of an 8mm bolt down to 3/16 to fit in the flywheel slot.



Sorry not a great shot.

Many thanks for all your help.

Matt

matt90110 said:

Well I finally got round to sorting it and it has made a great difference. The timing was out but not by much, but it was enough!

Now no blue smoke, and it drives noticably better.

My Haynes manual says that a 9.5mm bit will do but I couldn't get it to fit. So like Tom says, I used a 9mm bit and it worked fine.

I made a locking tool by tapping out a 1/4" brass fitting with an 8mm tap. And then ground the tip of an 8mm bolt down to 3/16 to fit in the flywheel slot.

Sorry not a great shot.

Many thanks for all your help.

Matt

Click to expand...

Good to hear. Keep good hold of that pin, it will come in very handy every five / six years or so when you need to swap your belt.

-Tom