Land Rover ForumsLandrover Forum

Forum LZ Shop Gallery For Sale LZ - Live
Go Back   Land Rover Zone > Newsgroups > Newsgroups > alt.fan.landrover
Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

alt.fan.landrover Your gateway to the Landrover Fan Newsgroup. 10 posts or more required before posting is allowed here. Please read this before entering.

Welcome to Land Rover Zone!

You are currently viewing our site as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, photos and use our for sale section. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!



Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 4th-August-2005, 12:26
Jon
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Defender 200Tdi Fuel Pump Timing

All,

Following on from an earlier post I cant affod (at the moment) to take
Kate to see a propoer diesel fuel injection mechanic or (better still)
down the road to Twisted Performance for a new Intercooler and setup.


So...
The engine was retarded, so I slackened the 3 holding bolts and
rotated the pump shaft clockwise. Now the engine has more grunt than
it did before but is now much noisier. It now sounds more like a cold
transit van diesel to the sewing machine it was! When driving it now
I have to raise my voice slightly to speak to the Mrs!

How do I adjust the timing of the fuel pump correctly / properly as I
suspect it is now slightly too advanced and thus too noisy?

Is it trial and error? I am not trying to adjust any fuel delivery,
just when it delivers!

Thanks
Jon
Reply With Quote
LZ
  #2  
Old 4th-August-2005, 13:21
Marc Draper
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Defender 200Tdi Fuel Pump Timing

In message <buu3f11j8fb2ff7agpqufpkt9pe17bvplf@4ax.com>, Jon
<nospam@nospam.com> writes
>How do I adjust the timing of the fuel pump correctly / properly as I
>suspect it is now slightly too advanced and thus too noisy?
>
>Is it trial and error? I am not trying to adjust any fuel delivery,
>just when it delivers!


Buy the proper timing pins. Read the manual. It will take you only a few
mins to set up. Then you know it is done properly.

Cost 20 quid pos a bit more.

Or take it to any independent who will have the pins and pay them to do
it.

It is only a five second job

messing around you will end up doing more damage.

--
Marc

www.mdeng.co.uk

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 4th-August-2005, 20:15
m0bcg
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Defender 200Tdi Fuel Pump Timing

there is a slot in the pump gear and a hole in the backing plate which
when the timing gears are lined up will pass the pump gear hole over a
hole in the pump body , in which you locate a pin in order to lock pump
and shaft in position .

this is all done with No1 cyl at top dead centre .

the locking pin is about 10mm diameter and so you can use a drill if
you like to lock the pump in place .

the 3 bolts in the pump gear are there to allow the gear to move and
align itself in the timing belt without altering the injector pump
timing , however when tensiong a new timing belt you may alter the cam
timing by a very small amount but this is normal and seems not to be
worried about to some degree ..

the woodruff key on the crankshaft will be at 12 clock position when
engine is at top dead centre and the camshaft gear aligns with mark on
block .

if you take off top of rocker cover you can watch the rockers moving as
you turn engine over by hand and when No1 cyl is at top dead centre
neither rocker on No1 cylinder will be moving , if they are rocking you
need to go one more turn over until both are closed and note the crank
keyway to come up to 12 oclock , ie directly on top towards sky .

in gearbox bellhousing underneath the landrover , is a tapped hole ,
when engine is at top dead centre youll see a slot in the flywheel
aligns with centre of hole, this needs to be locked also, using a pin .


if you were to buy either a DIFFLOCK timing pin & puller kit at 99
quid , it has all pins and pullers necessary to retime landy diesels
from N/ A 200/300TDI , or if you look on internet there are BERGEN
timing pin kits available for landys .

youll need a crank pulley puller to remove the crank harmonic
damper/pulley and a 27mm socket to undo the crank pulley retaining bolt
..

you can screw the crank bolt back in so you can turn engine over for
timing purposes, no need to remove glow plugs , you can turn engine
over using knuckle bar and socket .

dont forget to tighten the crank pulley bolt nice and tight after .

to get crank pulley bolt undone , a sharp blow with lump hammer to
knuckle bar will loosen it .
use a little loctite on the thread when you reinstall crank bolt .

dont forget to remove the flywheel locking pin before you rotate engine
..

no need to remove timing belt in order to retime injector pump so long
as you havent rotated it by more than the gear slot allows .

if you are not intending on taking crank pulley etc off to adjust
injector pump timing , then watch rockers on no1 cyl to indicate
coming up to top dead, look under gearbox housing hole and line up
flywheel slot and lock in place if poss , then loosen 3 pump gear bolts
and rotate pump shaft locking nut back so to align with timing pin
hole and lock in place with pin .

then you can retighten 3 pump gear bolts and remove locking pins .

if you find the power is very high but you have lots of black smoke
from exhaust at all ranges , undo the fuel metering screw on rear of
pump and go out 1/4 turn at a time until smoke dissappears .
youll have to strike balance between power and smoke and so it may take
a few attempts to get satisfactory .

this screw is on rear of pum near the injector pipe unions , it has a
13mm locknut and a screwthread extending out about 25mm , there is
screwdriver slot in end of thread , you hold locknut loose with spanner
and then unscrew or screw the thread in or out as desired .
IN for more fuel, OUT for less .

the "smoke adjuster" is on top of pump housing,there is a small [gold]
blanking cap [15mm dia] on top of casting which has the 4 screws in ,
pry cap out with screwdriver and youll see 13mm locknut with a 8mm TORX
grub screw , this screw is screwed in for more fuel and out for less ,
locknut may be loctited and so might need a bit of effort to undo .

inside pump, under top casting , ie the housing on top of pump which
has 4 screws holding it down , is a diaphragm and shaft and a starwheel
adjuster which alters fuel delivery rates .

the metal plate holding rubber diaphragm has a dot mark on it and the
diaphragm can be rotated to change fuel metering rates , this will be
pointing somewhere between 12 oclock [to rocker cover] and 6 oclock
[towards wing ] , the leanest position is towards rocker cover and
richest towards wing .

just take it that youll position it somewhere from 12 oclock to 6
oclock , it does not screw in and out but rotates around a 360deg axis
..

you can pull the diaphragm assembly out by hand , in one piece with
rubber and shaft attatched .

on shaft youll note a tapered and eccentric shape of shaft , this
rests against a pin down in the pump itself and alters fuel rates
according to position the taper or eccentric is in .

the turbo boost pressure is applied upon diaphragm via pipe on side of
top housing and thus pushes shaft down using the diaphragm , allowing
pin in pump to come in and allow more fuel thru as revs and boost
pressure increase etc .

under diaphragm youll see large spring , this is just placed in there
and can be removed/reinstalled easily .

under spring youll see a starwheel adjuster , this has a click stop
adjustment and if you pry the lock spring using screwdriver you can
rotate the starwheel .

to lessen spring pressure effect of starwheel you will screw the
starwheel in clockwise , but only about 1/2 turn at a time and noting
smoke from exhaust [under load] after adjustment .

to lessen spring effect you undo the starwheel .

this starwheel alters the spring pressure against the diaphragm and
alters where the turbo boost is allowed to move the diaphragm downwards
to increase fuel flow .

basically only minor adjustment of starwheel should need to be made ,
if any adjustment .

there is a white nylon spacer on the metering shaft and dont forget to
make sure it is still fitted when refitting metering shaft/diaphragm
and spring assembly , as it stops length of travel of metering shaft .

the main adjustment that makes most difference is the full load
adjustment on rear of pump , if unscrewed too far youll note lack of
pull when in top gear at low [25mph ] speed when on flat road .

hope that is easy enough to understand.

ive been adjusting my pump for maximum economy , so all my adjustments
have been in reverse .
previous owner screwed everything IN , yes it went like stink but i
only got 23mpg locally and lees on motorway driving .

cheers , ian .





..

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 4th-August-2005, 20:33
Jon
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Defender 200Tdi Fuel Pump Timing

Ian,
A VERY comprehensive post. Many Thanks.

I think I will avoid removing the timing belt again as its only a
month or two since it was last off (to replace that pesky water gasket
between block and timing case).

That said, I will TDC it and make sure all markers line up as they
should. I suspect they do because it runs sweet.

From reading your post, as I understand it, my engine is setup right
(timing wise) if woodruff key is at 12 o'clock, slot in flywheel is
visible and a 10mm drill can be placed right into the fuel pump all
whilst cylinder No1 is at TDC. Is this right?

If I can get to this stage or verify that it is correct then I will be
happy to leave it like this until I can get the new intercooler and
get someone else who knows more what they are doing to "tweak".


Thanks a lot,
Jon


On 4 Aug 2005 12:15:16 -0700, "m0bcg" <almacottage@btopenworld.com>
wrote:

>there is a slot in the pump gear and a hole in the backing plate which
>when the timing gears are lined up will pass the pump gear hole over a
>hole in the pump body , in which you locate a pin in order to lock pump
>and shaft in position .
>
>this is all done with No1 cyl at top dead centre .
>
>the locking pin is about 10mm diameter and so you can use a drill if
>you like to lock the pump in place .
>
>the 3 bolts in the pump gear are there to allow the gear to move and
>align itself in the timing belt without altering the injector pump
>timing , however when tensiong a new timing belt you may alter the cam
>timing by a very small amount but this is normal and seems not to be
>worried about to some degree ..
>
>the woodruff key on the crankshaft will be at 12 clock position when
>engine is at top dead centre and the camshaft gear aligns with mark on
>block .
>
>if you take off top of rocker cover you can watch the rockers moving as
>you turn engine over by hand and when No1 cyl is at top dead centre
>neither rocker on No1 cylinder will be moving , if they are rocking you
>need to go one more turn over until both are closed and note the crank
>keyway to come up to 12 oclock , ie directly on top towards sky .
>
>in gearbox bellhousing underneath the landrover , is a tapped hole ,
>when engine is at top dead centre youll see a slot in the flywheel
>aligns with centre of hole, this needs to be locked also, using a pin .
>
>
>if you were to buy either a DIFFLOCK timing pin & puller kit at 99
>quid , it has all pins and pullers necessary to retime landy diesels
>from N/ A 200/300TDI , or if you look on internet there are BERGEN
>timing pin kits available for landys .
>
>youll need a crank pulley puller to remove the crank harmonic
>damper/pulley and a 27mm socket to undo the crank pulley retaining bolt
>.
>
>you can screw the crank bolt back in so you can turn engine over for
>timing purposes, no need to remove glow plugs , you can turn engine
>over using knuckle bar and socket .
>
>dont forget to tighten the crank pulley bolt nice and tight after .
>
>to get crank pulley bolt undone , a sharp blow with lump hammer to
>knuckle bar will loosen it .
> use a little loctite on the thread when you reinstall crank bolt .
>
>dont forget to remove the flywheel locking pin before you rotate engine
>.
>
>no need to remove timing belt in order to retime injector pump so long
>as you havent rotated it by more than the gear slot allows .
>
>if you are not intending on taking crank pulley etc off to adjust
>injector pump timing , then watch rockers on no1 cyl to indicate
>coming up to top dead, look under gearbox housing hole and line up
>flywheel slot and lock in place if poss , then loosen 3 pump gear bolts
>and rotate pump shaft locking nut back so to align with timing pin
>hole and lock in place with pin .
>
> then you can retighten 3 pump gear bolts and remove locking pins .
>
>if you find the power is very high but you have lots of black smoke
>from exhaust at all ranges , undo the fuel metering screw on rear of
>pump and go out 1/4 turn at a time until smoke dissappears .
>youll have to strike balance between power and smoke and so it may take
>a few attempts to get satisfactory .
>
>this screw is on rear of pum near the injector pipe unions , it has a
>13mm locknut and a screwthread extending out about 25mm , there is
>screwdriver slot in end of thread , you hold locknut loose with spanner
>and then unscrew or screw the thread in or out as desired .
>IN for more fuel, OUT for less .
>
>the "smoke adjuster" is on top of pump housing,there is a small [gold]
>blanking cap [15mm dia] on top of casting which has the 4 screws in ,
>pry cap out with screwdriver and youll see 13mm locknut with a 8mm TORX
>grub screw , this screw is screwed in for more fuel and out for less ,
>locknut may be loctited and so might need a bit of effort to undo .
>
>inside pump, under top casting , ie the housing on top of pump which
>has 4 screws holding it down , is a diaphragm and shaft and a starwheel
>adjuster which alters fuel delivery rates .
>
>the metal plate holding rubber diaphragm has a dot mark on it and the
>diaphragm can be rotated to change fuel metering rates , this will be
>pointing somewhere between 12 oclock [to rocker cover] and 6 oclock
>[towards wing ] , the leanest position is towards rocker cover and
>richest towards wing .
>
>just take it that youll position it somewhere from 12 oclock to 6
>oclock , it does not screw in and out but rotates around a 360deg axis
>.
>
>you can pull the diaphragm assembly out by hand , in one piece with
>rubber and shaft attatched .
>
>on shaft youll note a tapered and eccentric shape of shaft , this
>rests against a pin down in the pump itself and alters fuel rates
>according to position the taper or eccentric is in .
>
>the turbo boost pressure is applied upon diaphragm via pipe on side of
>top housing and thus pushes shaft down using the diaphragm , allowing
>pin in pump to come in and allow more fuel thru as revs and boost
>pressure increase etc .
>
>under diaphragm youll see large spring , this is just placed in there
>and can be removed/reinstalled easily .
>
>under spring youll see a starwheel adjuster , this has a click stop
>adjustment and if you pry the lock spring using screwdriver you can
>rotate the starwheel .
>
>to lessen spring pressure effect of starwheel you will screw the
>starwheel in clockwise , but only about 1/2 turn at a time and noting
>smoke from exhaust [under load] after adjustment .
>
>to lessen spring effect you undo the starwheel .
>
>this starwheel alters the spring pressure against the diaphragm and
>alters where the turbo boost is allowed to move the diaphragm downwards
>to increase fuel flow .
>
>basically only minor adjustment of starwheel should need to be made ,
>if any adjustment .
>
>there is a white nylon spacer on the metering shaft and dont forget to
>make sure it is still fitted when refitting metering shaft/diaphragm
>and spring assembly , as it stops length of travel of metering shaft .
>
>the main adjustment that makes most difference is the full load
>adjustment on rear of pump , if unscrewed too far youll note lack of
>pull when in top gear at low [25mph ] speed when on flat road .
>
>hope that is easy enough to understand.
>
>ive been adjusting my pump for maximum economy , so all my adjustments
>have been in reverse .
> previous owner screwed everything IN , yes it went like stink but i
>only got 23mpg locally and lees on motorway driving .
>
>cheers , ian .
>
>
>
>
>
>.


Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 4th-August-2005, 21:00
Richard Brookman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Defender 200Tdi Fuel Pump Timing

so m0bcg was, like...
>
> the locking pin is about 10mm diameter and so you can use a drill if
> you like to lock the pump in place .


I believe it's 9mm.

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)


Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 5th-August-2005, 07:50
Mark
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Defender 200Tdi Fuel Pump Timing

X-No-Archive: Yes

Hi Ian,

a very educational posting there; not easy to understand the pump
adjustments in their entirety though; it looks as though there are 4
adjustments:

1. fuel metering screw on back of pump
2. "smoke adjuster" on top of pump under cap
3. diaphragm
4. starwheel

I think I understand that the fuel metering screw is a 'global' adjustment,
so alters the amount of fuel at all revs;

that the 'smoke adjuster' is similar? Although how do they relate? I had
understood that smoke was mainly a sign of unburnt fuel [overfueling];

that the diaphragm/starwheel alter the response curve / sensitivity of the
fuel delivery to higher revs [+ turbo in a turbo engine, I hope the NA pump
is similar in that respect], although how does diaphragm adjustment relate
to starwheel adjustment?

On my NAD, I'm seeing heaps of black smoke at startup, when even mildly
labouring at low revs, when putting on a bit more power at high revs [at
altitude particularly]. The engine doesn't seem as though it's "adjusted for
power" although perhaps a 65hp engine wouldn't! My priority is keeping the
neighbours happy [reducing the smoke] although fuel economy would be nice.

cheers

Mark

"m0bcg" <almacottage@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:1123182916.168555.291560@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
> if you find the power is very high but you have lots of black smoke
> from exhaust at all ranges , undo the fuel metering screw on rear of
> pump and go out 1/4 turn at a time until smoke dissappears .
> youll have to strike balance between power and smoke and so it may take
> a few attempts to get satisfactory .
> this screw is on rear of pum near the injector pipe unions , it has a
> 13mm locknut and a screwthread extending out about 25mm , there is
> screwdriver slot in end of thread , you hold locknut loose with spanner
> and then unscrew or screw the thread in or out as desired .
> IN for more fuel, OUT for less .
> the "smoke adjuster" is on top of pump housing,there is a small [gold]
> blanking cap [15mm dia] on top of casting which has the 4 screws in ,
> pry cap out with screwdriver and youll see 13mm locknut with a 8mm TORX
> grub screw , this screw is screwed in for more fuel and out for less ,
> locknut may be loctited and so might need a bit of effort to undo .
> inside pump, under top casting , ie the housing on top of pump which
> has 4 screws holding it down , is a diaphragm and shaft and a starwheel
> adjuster which alters fuel delivery rates .
> the metal plate holding rubber diaphragm has a dot mark on it and the
> diaphragm can be rotated to change fuel metering rates , this will be
> pointing somewhere between 12 oclock [to rocker cover] and 6 oclock
> [towards wing ] , the leanest position is towards rocker cover and
> richest towards wing .
> just take it that youll position it somewhere from 12 oclock to 6
> oclock , it does not screw in and out but rotates around a 360deg axis
> .
> you can pull the diaphragm assembly out by hand , in one piece with
> rubber and shaft attatched .
> on shaft youll note a tapered and eccentric shape of shaft , this
> rests against a pin down in the pump itself and alters fuel rates
> according to position the taper or eccentric is in .
> the turbo boost pressure is applied upon diaphragm via pipe on side of
> top housing and thus pushes shaft down using the diaphragm , allowing
> pin in pump to come in and allow more fuel thru as revs and boost
> pressure increase etc .
> under diaphragm youll see large spring , this is just placed in there
> and can be removed/reinstalled easily .
> under spring youll see a starwheel adjuster , this has a click stop
> adjustment and if you pry the lock spring using screwdriver you can
> rotate the starwheel .
> to lessen spring pressure effect of starwheel you will screw the
> starwheel in clockwise , but only about 1/2 turn at a time and noting
> smoke from exhaust [under load] after adjustment .
> to lessen spring effect you undo the starwheel .
> this starwheel alters the spring pressure against the diaphragm and
> alters where the turbo boost is allowed to move the diaphragm downwards
> to increase fuel flow .
> basically only minor adjustment of starwheel should need to be made ,
> if any adjustment .
> there is a white nylon spacer on the metering shaft and dont forget to
> make sure it is still fitted when refitting metering shaft/diaphragm
> and spring assembly , as it stops length of travel of metering shaft .
> the main adjustment that makes most difference is the full load
> adjustment on rear of pump , if unscrewed too far youll note lack of
> pull when in top gear at low [25mph ] speed when on flat road .
> hope that is easy enough to understand.
> ive been adjusting my pump for maximum economy , so all my adjustments
> have been in reverse .
> previous owner screwed everything IN , yes it went like stink but i
> only got 23mpg locally and lees on motorway driving .
> cheers , ian .



Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 7th-August-2005, 07:57
Mark
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Defender 200Tdi Fuel Pump Timing

"m0bcg" <almacottage@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:1123182916.168555.291560@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
> if you find the power is very high but you have lots of black smoke
> from exhaust at all ranges , undo the fuel metering screw on rear of
> pump and go out 1/4 turn at a time until smoke dissappears .
> youll have to strike balance between power and smoke and so it may take
> a few attempts to get satisfactory .


Archived very detailed resource for pump adjustments:

http://www.ednotion.com/landroverfor...224febe857c0a9

Regards

Mark


Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 7th-August-2005, 09:38
SimonJ
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Defender 200Tdi Fuel Pump Timing

> ive been adjusting my pump for maximum economy , so all my adjustments
> have been in reverse .
> previous owner screwed everything IN , yes it went like stink but i
> only got 23mpg locally and lees on motorway driving .
>

I always find its best to adjust the pump for maximum power, so its there if
you need it, then adjust the right boot for maximum economy!


Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 7th-August-2005, 09:56
SimonJ
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Defender 200Tdi Fuel Pump Timing


"Mark" <Markiehatesspam@notelespam2.fr> wrote in message
news:0hiJe.22753$hV3.8129@nntpserver.swip.net...
> "m0bcg" <almacottage@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
> news:1123182916.168555.291560@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
> > if you find the power is very high but you have lots of black smoke
> > from exhaust at all ranges , undo the fuel metering screw on rear of
> > pump and go out 1/4 turn at a time until smoke dissappears .
> > youll have to strike balance between power and smoke and so it may take
> > a few attempts to get satisfactory .

>
> Archived very detailed resource for pump adjustments:
>
>

http://www.ednotion.com/landroverfor...=31&s=5e21534e
37279dd2dd224febe857c0a9
>

Try this lot as well.........

(some of it relates to dodge ram's. but its the same pump, and the same
adjustments)

http://www.dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/mor...r/Power_ve.htm

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/f...61&page=1&pp=1
5

http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/jag/vw...i/injpump.html

http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/f...110&catnr=20&p
rog=1&lang=en&onlynewfaq=1


Also my little tip here, when adjusting the starwheel, all the instructions
say you have to remove the diaphragm, this is unnecessary, it can be
adjusted by removing the breather plug under the diaphragm, using a small
flat screwdriver to turn it. There are 40 notches on the wheel, so turning
it 10 clicks at a time gives 1/4 turn adjustments.
Only a small point I know, but not having to strip the top while you are
trying to find the best adjustment saves quite a bit of time!


Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 7th-August-2005, 10:25
steve Taylor
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Defender 200Tdi Fuel Pump Timing

SimonJ wrote:
> "Mark" <Markiehatesspam@notelespam2.fr> wrote in message
> news:0hiJe.22753$hV3.8129@nntpserver.swip.net...
>


I've never archived so much useful stuff !! Thanks Lads. Going to be handy.

Steve
Reply With Quote
LZ
Reply

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 17:01.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0
Page generated in 0.09305 seconds with 8 queries