Do I have 'the' gearbox problem or don't i??

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lenb

lenb

Active Member
Posts
189
Location
Leicester, UK
My apologies for bringing up the same question, but bare with me:

Overheating L322 4.4 gearbox (cooling mode), changed the rad and oil cooler and seems to be sorted (just done 180 miles with tin tent and no problem) apart from!! ... 1 to 2 secs worth of bad vibration on acceleration. Now this happened before but seemed to be sorted after I requested a gearbox oil and filter change. When I changed the oil cooler at the weekend I lost a small amount of oil so got the garage that did the oil and filter change to check it for me - I think they must be rubbish and here's why: when I asked what oil to use they said Dexron (I read differently on this forum). Then when they checked oil level for me it ****ed out even though I lost some when changing oil cooler. Was it over filled? Was it too hot? Have they used the wrong stuff? The guy said he would check it cold????
HELP! There are so many question marks to their workmanship I now don't really know which way to go!
Does anyone know of a decent garage in Bournmouth where I might get it checked before the long journey home? Or will it be ok until I return home?
Sorry for long post.
 
They MUST use the correct oil for the box....NOT Dexron, it has to be the LT71141 oil AND NO OTHER....

The level is checked with the box at around 40degC and with the engine running after going slowly through all gears and back to park.

Failure to have the engine running will mean the fluid will drain back to the sump making it seem like it is over full......it MUST be checked engine running so the pump has filled the system, cooler and valve block galleries....

I would advocate getting it checked correctly before you drive it as wrong level and wrong fluid will trash the box!
 
Saint.V8 said:
They MUST use the correct oil for the box....NOT Dexron, it has to be the LT71141 oil AND NO OTHER....

The level is checked with the box at around 40degC and with the engine running after going slowly through all gears and back to park.

Failure to have the engine running will mean the fluid will drain back to the sump making it seem like it is over full......it MUST be checked engine running so the pump has filled the system, cooler and valve block galleries....

I would advocate getting it checked correctly before you drive it as wrong level and wrong fluid will trash the box!
Click to expand...

Hi Saint
I've found out they definitely used Dexron 3, how do I flush this out and replace with LT71141? Do they mix so doing it gradually replaces it?
 
lenb said:
Hi Saint
I've found out they definitely used Dexron 3, how do I flush this out and replace with LT71141? Do they mix so doing it gradually replaces it?
Click to expand...
I would advise you don't do anything....they have contaminated the oil and gearbox, it is down to them at their cost to do the remedials.

Dexron is RED and LT71141 is a Straw colour and smells of fish!!

Now I don't know for 100% sure, but if the wrong fluid is used, you may need to start thinking about the drive clutch linings and the Torque Convertor linings as they have now been soaked in the wrong fluid and could degrade, slip or fail.....Bemble/RRPhil is the man to ask.

It is down to the garage to correct their error at their cost.....

As for how to get it out, the only thing to do is a Mega-flush this uses a pump to pull ALL the old fluid out and then replace with the correct grade and refill correctly...this must be done with the fluid at 40degC, go slowly through the gears and back to Park, then keep filling until it dribbles out of the filler hole!

If they are not confident to do it themselves, then they need to pay for someone to do it correctly and properly....

It is their feck up, it is their problem....even if that means transporting you, your family and your car back to where you live and to a garage closer to you....failing that, provide you with rental car transport for you and your family to get home, then transport your car back to you once they have fixed it.
 
At the end of the day Dexron is an ATF so there’s unlikely to be any long term effects/chemical compatibility issues provided you get the fluid replaced soon. The friction modifier packs used in the two fluids are different and your transmission controller will try to compensate for the sudden change in the dynamic-to-static friction coefficient by changing its long-term adaptions (by modulating the clutch pressures to try to maintain the clutch slip times). The problems occur when it can’t achieve this within its tolerance bands and the slip becomes uncontrolled or the ‘shock’ of suddenly having to run at higher pressures proves too much for tired and worn mechanical elements. This particularly applies to the lock-up clutch in the torque converter which requires a tight tolerance in order to operate satisfactorily in its continuous slip mode (to isolate torsional vibration).

FrictionCoefficientLUC.jpg


Your controller will have to re-learn its old settings again when you revert back to Mobil ATF LT71141/ZF LifeguardFluid 5. I’ve rebuilt several 5HP24s which had been running in Dexron – not a pretty sight, believe me.

While we’re on the subject, I’d strongly suggest that you steer clear of using ‘inventory-reduction’ fluids which claim to meet the specification of Dexron, LT71141 & M1375.4 all in the same fluid. In fact they usually just list a load of specifications on the bottle without actually going as far as stating that the fluid meets any of them. You’ll find that the only people that recommend their use are the company that produces them (well they would, wouldn’t they) – what matters is whether the company that developed and manufactures the transmission (in this case, ZF) recommends the fluid.

Only ever use Mobil ATF LT71141 or ZF LifeguardFluid 5 in your 5HP24.

Just my opinion, obviously :)
 
Bemble said:
While we’re on the subject, I’d strongly suggest that you steer clear of using ‘inventory-reduction’ fluids which claim to meet the specification of Dexron, LT71141 & M1375.4 all in the same fluid. In fact they usually just list a load of specifications on the bottle without actually going as far as stating that the fluid meets any of them. You’ll find that the only people that recommend their use are the company that produces them (well they would, wouldn’t they) – what matters is whether the

Only ever use Mobil ATF LT71141 or ZF LifeguardFluid 5 in your 5HP24.
Click to expand...


I hear what you say but how about this:

MPM Oil 16000FM ATF FM+
Specifications:
BMW ETL-7045E / LT 71141 Ford WSS-M2C202-B Jaguar ATF LT 71141 Landrover ATF N 402 MB-Approval 236.7 Peugeot, Citroën ATF LT 71141 Porsche ATF LT 71141 VW TL 52162 / LT 71141

Typical Characteristics:
Density at 15°C 0,861 kg/l
Colour Clear yellowbrown
Kinematic viscosity at 40°C 36.6 mm2/s
Kinematic viscosity at 100°C 7.2 mm2/s
Viscosity index 165
Flashpoint COC 212°C
Pourpoint -48 °C
Total Base number 2.7 mgKOH/g
Brookfield viscosity at -40°C 12000 cP


The reason I ask about this is that my local motor factors came up with this and didn't even suggest Dexron (unlike the idiots that did the job in the first place).

Thanks for everyone's help.
 
Clearly it’s your decision, and at least that particular fluid claims ‘to meet the requirements’ only of LT71141 rather than several ATFs.

If it were me I’d be thinking that the genuine fluid is available for under £10/litre so how much am I going to save for the risk I’m taking, considering a re-manufactured transmission costs over £2000.
 
Saint.V8 said:
I would advise you don't do anything....they have contaminated the oil and gearbox, it is down to them at their cost to do the remedials.

Dexron is RED and LT71141 is a Straw colour and smells of fish!!

Now I don't know for 100% sure, but if the wrong fluid is used, you may need to start thinking about the drive clutch linings and the Torque Convertor linings as they have now been soaked in the wrong fluid and could degrade, slip or fail.....Bemble/RRPhil is the man to ask.

It is down to the garage to correct their error at their cost.....



If they are not confident to do it themselves, then they need to pay for someone to do it correctly and properly....

It is their feck up, it is their problem....even if that means transporting you, your family and your car back to where you live and to a garage closer to you....failing that, provide you with rental car transport for you and your family to get home, then transport your car back to you once they have fixed it.
Click to expand...

+1

The information is out there, it is the garages responsibility to ensure that their workmanship is sound and the parts fitted are correct.
As a consumer you have rights. Approach the garage in a friendly way and explain the situation, then ask how they are going to put things right for you.
 
Arghhhhhh!!!
What do you do when the idiots that did the job in the first place insist they know what they are doing and Dexron 3 is correct. I tried really nicely to suggest they checked for me and all the could say was "Land Rover just did it to get more money". They will be getting a letter from me with 'proof they're wrong" and I'll name and shame them as well.
When I said at the end "I'll get someone else to do it" the answer was "yes" - a sure sign they do t give a toss.
Now I'm fect off!!!!!!
 
Sorry to hear that you're still having problems. The point is that it isn't Land Rover who specify the fluid, it's ZF - the manufacturer of the transmission. I've attached the latest issue of TE-ML 11.
 

Attachments

  • ZF TE-ML 11 (2014_10).pdf
    87.4 KB · Views: 366
Thanks guys,
I've been on to someone who does 'Megaflush' and uses one fluid for all - yet another one who knows nothing about fluids!!!

What's best, a full flush via mega flush or me doing it by gradual replacement?
 
lenb said:
Thanks guys,
I've been on to someone who does 'Megaflush' and uses one fluid for all - yet another one who knows nothing about fluids!!!

What's best, a full flush via mega flush or me doing it by gradual replacement?
Click to expand...

Whilst I am not a fan of Megaflush as this *could* lead to New Fluid Syndrome......

New Fluid Syndrome is when the box is completely drained and filled with new fluid....ATF is a very good detergent and cleaning agent (has to be to keep the inside of the box clean!) but introducing all new fluid will begin to clean and dislodge all the built up crud hidden harmlessly in all the nocks and crannies of the box into the circulation system that can contaminate and cause problems with the box....

Diluting old CORRECT fluid with new CORRECT fluid by doing partial fluid changes stops this sudden 'cleaning' effect and is safer for the box....

In your case you have the WRONG fluid in the box and it would be best to get it all out and replace with all new CORRECT fluid and do a couple of frequent partial changes using CORRECT fluid just incase the Megaflush has dislodged some crud...these partial changes will do its best to dilute and get rid of the dirty fluid.

I would Megaflush personally as this could potentially save you £2k odd for a new box as Bemble says!
 
Saint.V8 said:
Whilst I am not a fan of Megaflush as this *could* lead to New Fluid Syndrome......

New Fluid Syndrome is when the box is completely drained and filled with new fluid....ATF is a very good detergent and cleaning agent (has to be to keep the inside of the box clean!) but introducing all new fluid will begin to clean and dislodge all the built up crud hidden harmlessly in all the nocks and crannies of the box into the circulation system that can contaminate and cause problems with the box....

Diluting old CORRECT fluid with new CORRECT fluid by doing partial fluid changes stops this sudden 'cleaning' effect and is safer for the box....

In your case you have the WRONG fluid in the box and it would be best to get it all out and replace with all new CORRECT fluid and do a couple of frequent partial changes using CORRECT fluid just incase the Megaflush has dislodged some crud...these partial changes will do its best to dilute and get rid of the dirty fluid.

I would Megaflush personally as this could potentially save you £2k odd for a new box as Bemble says!
Click to expand...

The other thought is that assuming the idiots that did the job put about 6lt in, each subsequent partial change will quickly reduce the percentage of 'wrong stuff'. It's only been in for about 4 weeks so hopefully not too much damage. (The nearest 'Megaflush' is 80 miles away and he wants £200 with me supplying ATF).
 
lenb said:
The other thought is that assuming the idiots that did the job put about 6lt in, each subsequent partial change will quickly reduce the percentage of 'wrong stuff'. It's only been in for about 4 weeks so hopefully not too much damage. (The nearest 'Megaflush' is 80 miles away and he wants £200 with me supplying ATF).
Click to expand...

In that instance, then yes, do a few drain and refills to dilute the wrong fluid and change the filter on the last flush through as the Filter will be saturated in the wrong fluid.
 
Saint.V8 said:
In that instance, then yes, do a few drain and refills to dilute the wrong fluid and change the filter on the last flush through as the Filter will be saturated in the wrong fluid.
Click to expand...

Ok Saintv8, will do.
How easy is it to check oil temp with IR thermometer, is it enough to point at sump?

(Sorry for all these questions)
 
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